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/ Global Warming News #221  
Actually I just watched the "How the Earth was Made" episode on the Sahara. IIRC they said the Sahara has been a green, lush area with monster lakes at least 6 times. Whale bones, fossil beaches, limestone etc. are all present in the Sahara. Using deep ocean core samples they determined how often and the frequency that this occurs (wind blows sand out to sea in the dry periods)..... lasts for a few thousand years every 15,000 years. The last time was 5,000 years ago. Turns out there is a 'wobble' in the Earth's rotation that it perfectly coincides with.

Seems to be a well-put together show based in science.

Has anyone seen the documentary that pits the Geologist against the Archeologists regarding the age of the Sphinx? :D And has anyone else noticed that the Archeologists all seem to wear Indian Jones hats these days. :D:D:D

The geologist things the Sphinx is MUCH older than the Archeologists/Egyptologists aka historians. The historians have a time line of all of the Egyptian dynasties and they put the building of the Sphinx at a certain period. But then comes along this rock dude who looks at the Sphinx and says the Sphinx has to be much older than the historians think due to the obvious WATER erosion on the Sphinx. :eek:

Course there is not alot of water in Egypt flooding across the sands, errr, ground so where did the water come from? And the answer is not the Nile. :D The Geologist showed photos of the erosion on the Sphinx to other rock dudes and they all said the erosion was caused by water. The Geologist showed the photos such that people did not know they were looking at the Sphinx.

Given that the Geologists know how long it will take the rock to erode by water that gives them a good idea on the age of the Sphinx.

But the Geological age really messes up the history/archeology.

Such which science is to be believed? :eek::D One of them is wrong. :D

Later,
Dan
 
/ Global Warming News #222  
What I don't understand is why none of the alarmists call for getting the science right and that call is only made by the skeptics.

I don't consider myself an alarmist, but I agree whole heartedly we deserve good science, which I've stated earlier. I think most people would agree to that. The questions becomes who can identify 'good' science. Who uses science as an end to a political goal? Apparently everybody.

I have an idea as to why NASA, NOAA and others are not always making their data public - it's not because I think they are hiding something - but since they are publically funded, they should release their raw data.

Dave.
 
/ Global Warming News #223  
Been reading these ice age sites. Published scientists on sun spots, orbits, earth tilt. I'm begining to hope very much that global warming is true. Even if it cost me $$$$$. Because the reality of another mini ice age is going to be a tough road to hoe. Growing seasons shorten for one. Geothermal could become a serious source of heat for most people. Crops is going to be another engineering hurdle to jump. Maybe the southwest could be irrigated. Don't know if we could direct more of the suns rays onto earth. Towards the ocean? Land? Who's land? Can it be done? If we argue about it long enough like global warming will it go away? It ain't looking pretty if the russian scientists are right. I always thought the next ice age is just 100s of 100s, if not 10,000 years away. After reading what occured during the mini ice age......whooooo. Hang on. Hopefully those guys aren't so right either. They are saying we'll know by about 2013-2015. Sun spots evidently are a huge force driving global temperatures here on earth. Always knew they had an influence, just never knew it was so great. The corrilation between sun spots, and the temps is very exact by their data. There is a lot of people counting sun spots.....and drawing conclusions, publishing papers.
 
/ Global Warming News #224  
Has anyone seen the documentary that pits the Geologist against the Archeologists regarding the age of the Sphinx? :D And has anyone else noticed that the Archeologists all seem to wear Indian Jones hats these days. :D:D:D

Speaking of Egyptian history, just saw an article today that now they think the builders of the pyramids were NOT slaves.

History seems to be up for a lot more interpretation than geology although geological theories certainly change. The episode on how the Grand Canyon formed is interesting in that respect.
 
/ Global Warming News #225  
Keegs,

I don't think it's a conspiracy at all; at least they didn't start out to conspire. The alarmists (including Al Gore, Phil Jones, Michael Mann as well as many others and many of the general public) are true believers and the press is not qualified to investigate. I don't know if reporters even take a course in statistics in school, but they report like they know nothing about that subject which is at the heart of any scientific investigation. Add to that the fact that most of them don't have the time to really investigate, they have to get a story out. So they interview the people they believe to be the experts and write up their talking points. There was a beautiful example of this in the Sunday Oregonian about a month ago in a story about Climategate, where the reporter simply reprinted the CRU talking points in answer to the charges posed in the emails. There was no investigation.

Example: As I said in an earlier post, a computer search of the climategate emails for the word "trick" in regard to the phrase "Mike's nature trick" turned up 8 examples of the word "trick". None were used in the context the CRU claimed in Phil Jones' defense. The "trick" was that they threw out data that conflicted with their models. This wasn't revealed by a reporter; it was reported by a meteorologist who wants the science right; a meteorologist who considers himself an environmentalist, who has solar panels on his roof and drives an electric car.

Now one interesting thing is that the BBC, which values their integrity highly, has announced an investigation into whether their climate change reporting was biased.

A few years ago I was a believer. Because of some disturbing reports, I investigated and found there are a lot of shortcomings in the global warming "science". The more I read, the more questions I had. For example, my 1974 text, "Plants and Environment" by Robert F. Daubenmire addressed the urban heat island effect. IPCC? What urban heat island effect? Even though 37 years had elapsed since the study Daubenmire referenced had been done, the IPCC still failed to address it.

So now, I just want the science to be sound. I don't assert global warming is or isn't happening; I just say the science isn't there and we need to get it right.
 
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/ Global Warming News #226  
Speaking of Egyptian history, just saw an article today that now they think the builders of the pyramids were NOT slaves.

The banking and financial systems were not all that sophisticated in the times of Egyptian pharaohs. Therefore, in order to build monuments to themselves, the Egyptian politicians decreed the citizens pay their taxes with their direct labor.

These days, the same monuments, now called legislation, are funded indirectly via our labor by payroll deduction, checks and EFTs. :eek::D:(:mad:
 
/ Global Warming News #227  
...And the comment was also made that power plants had to keep running because of the variable nature of wind power. While that is technically true (one does not trivially shut down a power plant), the newer plants (especially the natural gas ones) are designed to be able to rapidly vary the amount of power they produce and so they produce less when wind power is available.

Ken

I love this idea. We'll replace the coal fueled power plants with natural gas power plants. Then after we build the brand new power plants, we can also build a bunch of windmills so we don't have to use the brand new power plant.

Or, we could just build a brand new power plant and save a bunch of money on adding windmills to the mix. Same results, allot less money.

Maybe it's just me,

Eddie
 
/ Global Warming News #228  
There are many environmentalist and nature lovers against building windmills because of the birds and noise and looks, solar fields because it's harmful to the environment underneath, hydro because it changes the habitat of the fish, ..etc..
Coal and nukes are still the best value for generating electricity given all the environmental concerns weighted against the cost per amount of electricity generated.

A local power company near me is talking about installing a 100 acre solar field to generate something like 16MW of power, at a cost of $60M. That is ludicrous. And the state has signed up to buy the power so they can say they are "green". I don't know what the rate is they agreed to pay, but the power company will never get a payback on the investment. but then again, they aren't looking for a payback, this is a "feel good" we are going green moment.
 
/ Global Warming News #229  
I am very fearful to tread into this discussion...

I'd like to make one point on the solar cell and power plant comments. We have two kinds of power plants in the country. The "big ones" that are in the gigawatt range, and smaller ones in the 50 to 100 megawatt range that are called "peaking plants". The big ones can be nuclear, natural gas, and coal. The peaking plants are just about all turbines. Roughly speaking, a single engine on a 747 can make about 50 to 100 megawatts. Peaking plants have been around since the 1970's, when there were some on barges in New York City. I've seen some in California. The best one I've seen is called a "co-gen" plant. The steam that's left from making electricity goes to a food processing plant right next to the generator and it uses the steam to cook vegetables. Very good efficiencies there.

As the name implies, peaking plants are used when at peak demand times. Because they are smaller and due to their turbine based construction, they can be fired up quickly. In the California market, the ISO can use these plants to buy peak energy to keep things going. Being less efficient and because they don't run all the time, the electricity they make cost more than juice from a "big plant".

A second problem in the country is an aging power distribution system. The northeast is running way to close to capacity. Here in the southeast, things are better but growth is burdening the system. Adding more capacity cost money.

Now I'm putting about 7.7 KW (DC, about 5KW AC) of solar cells on the house. During peak summer loads, they will about meet my cooling needs. If lots of people put solar cells on their houses, the peak demands we see during the summer could be met. Because of the distributed nature of it all, the distribution grid would not be taxed as badly as it currently is. So my claim is that as a renewable source, solar has a place in the world. Peaking plants cost more to run, so the price parity point is a lot closer for this use. Distribution cost are lower, with some bookkeeping problems as to who "gets" the savings and how does that factor into a cost analysis. I can put these on my house because of tax subsidies that make the break even point less than 10 years (including cost of loss of use of the money). I'd like to thank everyone here for helping me with the cost of this project! From a capitalist point of view, the decision works for me given the current economic climate. Like the payback time on good insulation, it makes economic sense for me. Other energy industries get tax breaks, so it's OK that solar gets them too. Don't flame me about government control via tax breaks. I stopped taking payments from the feds for not growing crops on my land. I never intend to do so, and I feel I can't complain on the one hand if I'm taking money in the other because it's "free".

So this is an economic problem. Solar cells have a valid place in the world. When the sun is shinning, consumption goes up for air conditioning. As the technology matures and volumes go up, tax subsidies will be less important. Peaking plants and new distribution networks are expensive, which means there is a different price parity point than the "dollar per watt" holy grail often quoted for solar. Note that there is also a practical limit on how much solar makes sense because you still need energy when the sun doesn't shine. Solar is part of a very complex answer.

What _really_ upsets me is this:

We can spend $200 billion to bail out a bunch of greedy and stupid bankers. If we took that same money, we could put 2KW (DC) of solar on about 25 million homes, for a capacity of 33 Gigwatts (AC). Lots of jobs there, we could also require 50% US content in the systems. So we could build less peaking plants, and possibly less big plants too. This works because electric demand goes up when the sun is shinning in many parts of the country. The people who could make this happen are the people that could and should have come up with a 35 or 40 year mortgage that allowed better choices in home building, such as good insulation, windows, and even the solar panels. But these clowns were too busy making money to work on real long term solutions. This makes me sick.

This is a very small example of one of many areas, but it shows how hard it is to wrap ones head around problems and solutions. Reading the threads, there is a lot of common ground where everyone could work instead of arguing about who is right. Energy efficiency, availability of fuels, cleanness of fuels are all good problems that we can work on now, and in a generation things will be better. Save liquid fuels with their higher BTU to weight ration for mobile use (like tractors!). Energy independence is a good goal. Making energy can't be outsourced like manufacturing, so it provides jobs. If other countries can figure out nuclear, why can't we? I visited an island in Sweden this summer that had lots of wind power. The island exported power during the summer. That solution worked for them, and will work in a few other places. Smallish islands in the ocean have lots of wind. Note that this island in Sweden is not full of oil or coal, so they have a different economic factors when making their decisions. They did the analysis and did what was right for them, why can't we?

So I don't have many answers, but I see a lot of solutions that are worthy of focus no matter who is right. I suspect there are people on the extremes of both sides of this issue who would be terrified to find good actions that can be taken independent of their beliefs. Not much political power in being practical. So keep the discussions civil and work on the common ground we have. A nation divided is vulnerable.

Pete
 
/ Global Warming News #230  
Buckeyefarmer,

I share your disillusion.

Let's see, 16 MW at $60 million, that's about $3.75 per watt. At that price, my 6.5 KW backup generator should have cost $24,375 instead of the $800 it cost. And that doesn't allow for economies of scale which that big solar field should get. Ah, but they won't have to buy fuel for those solar panels, will they?

Costs a lot to 'feel good" these days, doesn't it?

This is an example of what happens when you get carried away with junk science.
 
/ Global Warming News #231  
Pilot-What would it cost to interconnect 2461 of your 6.5kw units (16MW) to state specs and operate them 12 hrs a day for 25 years minimum plus the upkeep. My experience with solar panels over the past 20 years is that maintenance is about zero. How many times would your units be replaced? Would you put a cost on your pollution or doesn't acid rain exist?

I appreciate Pete's post - I feel there are many advantages to some local control and independence.

Bottom line is that a fuel efficient vehicle and well insulated home along with other conservation efforts will save you money. Small and comfortable does not mean that your standard of living is lower. How many practice what we preach for our government and are spending less than they take in? Are we debt free?

Loren
 
/ Global Warming News #232  
I am very fearful to tread into this discussion...

I'd like to make one point on the solar cell and power plant comments. We have two kinds of power plants in the country. The "big ones" that are in the gigawatt range, and smaller ones in the 50 to 100 megawatt range that are called "peaking plants". The big ones can be nuclear, natural gas, and coal. The peaking plants are just about all turbines. Roughly speaking, a single engine on a 747 can make about 50 to 100 megawatts. Peaking plants have been around since the 1970's, when there were some on barges in New York City. I've seen some in California. The best one I've seen is called a "co-gen" plant. The steam that's left from making electricity goes to a food processing plant right next to the generator and it uses the steam to cook vegetables. Very good efficiencies there.

As the name implies, peaking plants are used when at peak demand times. Because they are smaller and due to their turbine based construction, they can be fired up quickly. In the California market, the ISO can use these plants to buy peak energy to keep things going. Being less efficient and because they don't run all the time, the electricity they make cost more than juice from a "big plant".

A second problem in the country is an aging power distribution system. The northeast is running way to close to capacity. Here in the southeast, things are better but growth is burdening the system. Adding more capacity cost money.

Now I'm putting about 7.7 KW (DC, about 5KW AC) of solar cells on the house. During peak summer loads, they will about meet my cooling needs. If lots of people put solar cells on their houses, the peak demands we see during the summer could be met. Because of the distributed nature of it all, the distribution grid would not be taxed as badly as it currently is. So my claim is that as a renewable source, solar has a place in the world. Peaking plants cost more to run, so the price parity point is a lot closer for this use. Distribution cost are lower, with some bookkeeping problems as to who "gets" the savings and how does that factor into a cost analysis. I can put these on my house because of tax subsidies that make the break even point less than 10 years (including cost of loss of use of the money). I'd like to thank everyone here for helping me with the cost of this project! From a capitalist point of view, the decision works for me given the current economic climate. Like the payback time on good insulation, it makes economic sense for me. Other energy industries get tax breaks, so it's OK that solar gets them too. Don't flame me about government control via tax breaks. I stopped taking payments from the feds for not growing crops on my land. I never intend to do so, and I feel I can't complain on the one hand if I'm taking money in the other because it's "free".

So this is an economic problem. Solar cells have a valid place in the world. When the sun is shinning, consumption goes up for air conditioning. As the technology matures and volumes go up, tax subsidies will be less important. Peaking plants and new distribution networks are expensive, which means there is a different price parity point than the "dollar per watt" holy grail often quoted for solar. Note that there is also a practical limit on how much solar makes sense because you still need energy when the sun doesn't shine. Solar is part of a very complex answer.

What _really_ upsets me is this:

We can spend $200 billion to bail out a bunch of greedy and stupid bankers. If we took that same money, we could put 2KW (DC) of solar on about 25 million homes, for a capacity of 33 Gigwatts (AC). Lots of jobs there, we could also require 50% US content in the systems. So we could build less peaking plants, and possibly less big plants too. This works because electric demand goes up when the sun is shinning in many parts of the country. The people who could make this happen are the people that could and should have come up with a 35 or 40 year mortgage that allowed better choices in home building, such as good insulation, windows, and even the solar panels. But these clowns were too busy making money to work on real long term solutions. This makes me sick.

This is a very small example of one of many areas, but it shows how hard it is to wrap ones head around problems and solutions. Reading the threads, there is a lot of common ground where everyone could work instead of arguing about who is right. Energy efficiency, availability of fuels, cleanness of fuels are all good problems that we can work on now, and in a generation things will be better. Save liquid fuels with their higher BTU to weight ration for mobile use (like tractors!). Energy independence is a good goal. Making energy can't be outsourced like manufacturing, so it provides jobs. If other countries can figure out nuclear, why can't we? I visited an island in Sweden this summer that had lots of wind power. The island exported power during the summer. That solution worked for them, and will work in a few other places. Smallish islands in the ocean have lots of wind. Note that this island in Sweden is not full of oil or coal, so they have a different economic factors when making their decisions. They did the analysis and did what was right for them, why can't we?

So I don't have many answers, but I see a lot of solutions that are worthy of focus no matter who is right. I suspect there are people on the extremes of both sides of this issue who would be terrified to find good actions that can be taken independent of their beliefs. Not much political power in being practical. So keep the discussions civil and work on the common ground we have. A nation divided is vulnerable.

Pete

Thanks for this great post eepete.
 
/ Global Warming News #233  
Bottom line is that a fuel efficient vehicle and well insulated home along with other conservation efforts will save you money. Small and comfortable does not mean that your standard of living is lower. How many practice what we preach for our government and are spending less than they take in? Are we debt free?

Loren

Amory Lovins calls this negawatts. I'm not sure we're going to get there on altruism and/or guilt though.

Government has to play a key role in this. We need continued incentives to stimulate innovation and disincentives on fossil fuels.

We're going to need nuclear energy to maintain base loads particularly for urban areas at least in the near to mid term....smart metering and grids.

We're going to need continued financial incentives to bring down the cost of renewables and to fund research in areas like better storage technology, better manufacturing methods for composites vehicle parts....etc.
 
/ Global Warming News #234  
Did anyone else catch how much "our" congress spent on going to the climate change meetings. to list 1 of their spendings they spent 9,000+ per hr for a private jet, and of course they had three of them. Not to mention the ones that took comercial flights brought their wifes etc... at a cost of 2000+ per person. Is it the scientist fault for bogus spending or should we look at the REAL problem?
 
/ Global Warming News #235  
Thanks for this great post eepete.

eepete's post was very good, ditto.

There is a peaking plant in the Adirondacks. They pump water uphill from a river to a reservoir during off-peak hours. The reservoir is drained through generator turbines during peak hours, back into the river. Aside from the construction of the reservoir and some river water level fluctuations, it is a fairly low impact system.

The reservoir is storing energy, it doesn't/wouldn't matter what power source is used to get the water uphill, the results would be the same. In this case they are are using excess grid capacity.
Dave.
 
/ Global Warming News #236  
Did anyone else catch how much "our" congress spent on going to the climate change meetings. to list 1 of their spendings they spent 9,000+ per hr for a private jet, and of course they had three of them. Not to mention the ones that took comercial flights brought their wifes etc... at a cost of 2000+ per person. Is it the scientist fault for bogus spending or should we look at the REAL problem?

So true.

In 1863 Pres. A. Lincoln created the National Academy of Science (The National Academies: Advisers to the Nation on Science, Engineering, and Medicine) for the purpose of providing scientific advise to the federal government. The National Research Council is a sub-group to the Academy that does the actual analyses and reports.

In the Nat'l Science Academy, we have a mechanism that has existed for over 150 years to address the very types of issues that surround the climate discussions. When people lose faith in these institutions, we find ourselves where we are now.

Science has been politicized to the detriment of all concerned.

Our Congress does very little leading and a whole lot of pandering, posturing and pocket padding. Term Limits!
Dave.
 
/ Global Warming News #237  
eepete's post was very good, ditto.

There is a peaking plant in the Adirondacks. They pump water uphill from a river to a reservoir during off-peak hours. The reservoir is drained through generator turbines during peak hours, back into the river. Aside from the construction of the reservoir and some river water level fluctuations, it is a fairly low impact system.

The reservoir is storing energy, it doesn't/wouldn't matter what power source is used to get the water uphill, the results would be the same. In this case they are are using excess grid capacity.
Dave.

Morning Dave,

There was a proposal in a town just north of where I am here in Jersey for a similar system utilizing an abandoned spring fed quarry. The NIMBY crowd put the kybosh on it because of objections to overhead cabling. :rolleyes:

We have a dam in town ...actually there are two within a half mile of each other. I have no idea of the viability of such a project but water runs over both dams 7x24x365..

I don't know what if anything that can be done to address the NIMBY issue other than a greater government role.
 
/ Global Warming News #238  
Address your concerns at the ballot box. For those that don't know this November 435 seats in the house and 1/3 of congress are up for election. Choose wisely regardless of their party. You have time to study the candidates, their positions and talk to those you know in hopes that they register and vote.
I hope this is generic enough to not get removed.
 
/ Global Warming News #239  
Morning Dave,


I don't know what if anything that can be done to address the NIMBY issue other than a greater government role.

Morning to you Keegs,

Well, a few days back someone suggested shutting off their power :D It does have a certain appeal to it.

It's an issue and one that has gotten worse as more people want to live in more rural areas, it's not just an issue in population centers. Just try to find a power corridor or hilltop that won't impact somebody.

For the last 5-10 years, the most effective way to keep things away from your property is to play the 'environmental impact card'. Of course, then when people read about it the newspapers, they can blame it all on the tree huggers. :D

Dave.
 
/ Global Warming News #240  
Address your concerns at the ballot box. For those that don't know this November 435 seats in the house and 1/3 of congress are up for election. Choose wisely regardless of their party. You have time to study the candidates, their positions and talk to those you know in hopes that they register and vote.
I hope this is generic enough to not get removed.

Great post, if we don't get out and vote, and take the time to inform ourselves, we get the government we deserve, as the saying goes.
Dave.
 
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