Getting cleared area ready to plant & HP recommendations...

[e.myers]

Have cleared 6 acres of land that was previously planted in pine trees.
Trees were row planted and grew for around 12-15 years.
Stumps were removed by a large excavator and buried below the surface of the ground. The dirt that was removed was backfilled on top of the stumps to allow for settling.
Land is a combination of sand and clay. The dirt that was dug from the trenches when piled on the stumps is ALL orange.... clay but sand clay.
When the stumps were pulled, they loosened up alot of the site, but there are areas that are hardpan (primarily where the original "deck"- the area where the first thinning took place and the cleared debris was stored to decompose).
Roots and debris are still all over the property, but other than raking the property, it really does look clean (very little plant material) and I think the guy operating the excavator went way above and beyond.
Stumps are not an issue. If there are any, I'd say there are few.

What I'm trying to accomplish...
Want to plant Winter Rye on the property to build up organic matter and stop erosion and weed growth.
Property is not level and there are dips, valleys, and sloped areas... partly due to the topography and partly due to the "landscaping".
I want to till up the land, fill in the voids and plant the rye.

My original thinking was I'd try and disc up the land with an old disc I have lying around (may or may not be functional), dragging a beam behind it as I go, and just leave the roots and stuff there to decompose. Then use a broadcast seed spreader and either come back and disc lightly to cover the seed or drag a piece of fence etc over it. Then, maybe I need to cultipack the seed... anyone know about rye? Sure would be nice not to have to purchase that.

But I'm also thinking that I want to get down deeper into the soil than a disc will penetrate (especially in the hardpan areas I mentioned), so thought it might make sense use a (chisel plow?) before I disc etc.
Then I started thinking of using a rotary tiller vs the disc (maybe even dragging a beam behind that).

Part of the reason for the questions is that this property will be farmed and it will also be a MX track for my boys.

I will need to be able to maintain the track with various implements and I think ultimately, I'll need both a disc and a rotary tiller. The chisel plow is an unknown.

The HP tractors I'm looking at are 35 - 45 hp, leaning right in the middle at 40. I want to be able to pull a disc & rotary tiller wide enough to cover my tracks and the widest chisel plow my to be purchased tractor can handle in clay soil. A 6' flail mower is what I'm thinking so any of the HP should be OK for that. However, Don't know if I want to make hay or not, so if I do will I need a rotary cutter also? If so, I'm thinking the 35hp tractor might struggle with a 6' rotary cutter (but don't know).

So, what do you think about
1. My proposed method of getting this done.
2. What tools do I need and/or bypass for the tasks at hand
3. The HP of the tractor. Am I correct in thinking the biggest drag on HP for me is going to be the chisel plow? How big of a chisel plow can I pull and how deep with a 37 - 45 hp tractor?

 

[jenkinsph]

I think the last time you posted about this property was before the stumps were removed?

I had a similar project this year, clearing the trees, stumps and uneven ground with erosion ditches to deal with and have ended up with a smooth lawn and new fescue that has had one cutting so far. What worked for me was digging a long and deep trench to bury the stumps and branches using the backhoe to grind and pack them tightly. I also buried any larger rocks and roots that were raked up with a landscape rake and made sure I had at least 12 inches of clean dirt packed down over these trenches.

To smooth out the ground and prepare it I built an 8 ft landplane similar to the Frontier LP1196 but heavier duty and about 50% more weight. I also bought a new Deere 673 tiller which runs about 7 to 8 inches deep. This enabled me to use the landplane to smooth and average out the high and low spots which were all over the place. Then till everything up as deep as I could go, then pickup any trash on top with a landscape rake and by hand.

I then ran the landplane over all of this until I was satisfied that it was about as smooth as I could get, I then tilled the entire area again to make sure that the prior high spots removed by the landplane were all tilled uniformly. Next thing was running a harrow to prepare for seeding, then used a broadcast seeder with 400 lbs of seed per acre and making two passes with the harrow to cover the seed. I stretched out and staked 1" Pex tubing to water the seeds temporarily and may install sprinklers but not sure what I want to do yet. The grass is up looking good over 90 to 95% of the area and leaves me with a few small areas to repair.

Your project seems very similar to mine and since you have most of the debris dealt with I think similar methods using a tiller and landplane will work for you. The tiller is able to break up the ground and deal with the roots and rocks if you have them since it is a forward tine rotation it will climb over the large rocks without harming it. Raking with a landscape rake and picking up debris will leave you with a decent patch of ground ready to smooth out.

The landplane is the key to smoothing out all the uneven ground though and makes a huge difference in the final look and finish. I also have a 7' boxblade with top and tilt and hydraulic scarifier teeth which works well but I think the landplane is much faster and easier to use to smooth and finish a large field.

My tractor is a 4520 cab (60 hp) and is just right for these tasks. In conclusion a similar sized tractor with ballast weighing 5000 to 6500 lbs, a landscape rake, 6 ft tiller and the 8' landplane will do the job of seedbed preparation. For one time use a simple pull type seeder for lawn tractors will do the job of broadcasting the grass seed and can be pulled with a riding mower or atv, new ones are about $250. If you plan on seeding and fertilizing more then consider a 3 pt spin sreader starting at about $600 to use behind the tractor.


Steve

 

[e.myers]

Yes, I cleared the stumps and did a burying process similar to yours.
I understand everything you're suggesting and it makes sense to me.
The big stumbling block for me is HP. I'm not going to be able to afford a 60 horse tractor.
Looking at 40 and possibly a 45.... both with hydro.
Is it possible to get all this done in the HP range.... Ideally 40?

 

[jenkinsph]

Look at the buying thread you have posted, to handle a multitude of tasks and you will have them go with a detachable loader bucket where you can change to forks and other buckets to make life easier. The 4120 will do basically the same things a 4520 will do just at a slower pace.



Steve

 

[roamrdb]

i know this isnt a forage or hay forum, but you would be doing yourself a huge favor to do a soil test. the soil here in the foothills of nc is already acidic, and the pine needles add greatly to this problem compounding over the years. my opinion of horsepower,get all you can stand financially or otherwise, whether the concern be hauling or whatever. you can do a lot of the work you describe with a good boxscrape. if you really want to get the hardpans attention, you got to go deep,here at least 16 to 18 inches, a single shank subsoiler in hard clay will make a 40 hp beg for mercy. you can also help with hardpan naturally. choice of what you plant can make an important difference in soil building. i have accumulated a fair amount of info on the process you are looking at for the last 20 or so years, mostly from the school of hard knocks. if you want any advice on establishment, choice, seeding methods of forages, let me know. i will be glad to help if i can. your county agent is a very good source of knowledge. best regards

 

[e.myers]

Steve-
Thanks again. 4120 and 40 ish horse is definitely more my price range. Will just have to take me more time I guess.

Roam rdb-
I'll definitely be in touch over the next week or two.
In the process of choosing my cover crops to help with my soil conditions. Very interested in cover crops and what they can do for the soil. Rye was chosen for some of the reasons you mention.
Looking into some other items that have "subsoiling" characteristics....

We'll talk more. Interested in your opinions on what I'm thinking.

 

[Egon]

Go with the roto tiller. You will make the best use of your HP this way. Also fabricate a drag of some sort and use that for the leveling. With a combination of tilling and dragging you will surprise yourself with the results.
For seeding six acres is entirely doable use a hand seeder or just broadcast and then harrow.

A three point harrow an be made from pickup tines and should work OK.

A picture attached of a few acres prepared with 16 HP tractor, hand spreader and home built harrow.
[these have been seen before]

 

[Ron D.]

Since you're primarily trying to level low areas, improve your soil, and plant grass, I would not turn the soil to the depth that brings the orange clay to the surface. Work the top soil you have to an appropriate depth and improve that. The orange clay is the poorer soil to improve compared to the top soil, and is harder to work into low areas in an even manner as it is clumpy.

Your local ag extension agent/office should have a good idea of what your soil needs, and you should check with them before you do any soil improvement, in that they may recommend adding something while you're improving things.

40hp should work fine for you size property, provided you're not "heavily ground engaging", it may just take a little longer. The 40hp size tractor will probably serve you better than a larger tractor once your property is improved. The tractor weight is as important as hp. A high hp tractor that is light will struggle more than a similar hp that weighs more.

I'm only somewhat familiar with Kubotas, others here are much more knowledgeable than I am, but when I purchased my tractor, a slightly used L2600DT w/FEL, I was also looking at a Grand L series. The difference in size, weight and beefier construction was very evident, but I chose the lighter tractor because of my specific needs. If I were doing what you're doing, I would probably look at the heavier duty series of whatever brand you go with, like the Grand over the standard L series Kubotas.

I would pick up all large roots/debris, disc it, then till it, then level it, then plant it. Add anything you need to the soil based upon advice for your area and soil type during one of the previous steps.

 

[Happyman]

Oh Boy
I'm in the process of finishing up the clearing of 6 acres for a Christmas tree farm.
This has not been an easy process. I have a 40 hp Kubota Grand L3940. All my stumps were removed but I've had to battle with the roots. The contractor that removed the trees and stumps also pulled a 4 tine sub-soiler, then disced the land, then sent a dozer to smooth things out. I then ran my landscape rake to collect the remaining roots. I got a lot of dirt with it and now am trying to get rid of the piles of topsol mixed with roots. Once this is done I will spread lime and fertilizer and pull a small disc (smaller than the contractors bat-wing disc ) to mix the lime and fertilizer into the soil. Then I'm pulling a 3pt mechanical seeder to plant clover and pasture grass. Christmas trees go in next spring.
This has been much more work and much more money than I ever anticipated. My tractor did not have the hp for some of this so I had to contract it out. Anyway, I'm almost done
Check out the photos of my progress:

 

[AchingBack]

The one big mistake I see in your scheme is the buried stumps. They will decompose, and those areas will sink. If that isn't a problem; then no mistake was commited, .

The rye is a great idea. I know you want to eliminate weeds. Understand, they can be your friend if you plant on bare soil. Weeds are guardians of the soil, and help protect it while the grasses are being established. Eventually, the grasses will take over, and weeds will succumb to the intense root systems.

Planting now is the best time, as weeds are not too active. In addition, if you sow half your seed before doing the work, you will be amazed at the crop you'll get. Sow the other half after final grading, and lightly drag with a landscape rake turned 180 degrees.

 

[Ford850]

I think some are not understanding the plan to plant rye. He said winter rye, which is a fast growing grain planted in the fall. It then grows to 3-5 feet tall in the spring and heads out. The roots are deep and expansive, and the top green is often plowed under in the spring, to improve the soil. It doesn't take much care to get it to grow. A broadcast spreader would work fine, followed by a light drag or a cultipacker. The fall moisture does the rest. It does a great job to loosen the soil. Rather than plowing it under, it can be sprayed or mowed and plant no-till style on top. Some are using the top growth as a mulch by rolling it flat after it dries and planting row crops on that cover.

 

[backdoor]

I have done what you are talking about, 3 to 4 acres at a time. After I cleared most of the stumps, I disked the fields a few times to loosen whatever topsoil I could, sowed winter rye, I used VNS till last year, fertilized it, disked it in, then let it grow. I left most of the debris that the dozer didn't get out there to rot. Late winter or early spring I started working the field as deep as I could. I sowed soybeans or buckwheat on whatever part of the field I had worked when planting time came, worked up more of the field as I had time through the summer, and more rye in the fall. Those tasty deer really love the young rye. After a couple of years all the roots are gone, the dirt is much more tillable, and it's time for a soil test for liming. Talk to the local fertilizer sales people-Souther States co-op or whoever you have local. They can mix rye seed in with fertilizer to spread for you with their truck or their spreader buggy behind your tractor if you can pull it. Then you can disk everything in an inch or two, and let it grow. We can't buy Variety Not Stated rye here anymore, so I use Abruzzi. I've done 13 acres so far in the last few years, 11 are in fescue now, 2 acres are my deer food plot. Hope this helps.

 

[roamrdb]

The tractor weight is as important as hp. A high hp tractor that is light will struggle more than a similar hp that weighs more.

this is a most important point that we sometimes wrongly assume everybody is aware of. dont matter how much hp you have, if you cant get it to the ground, its worthless. if i had to choose between the two, i would rather have less hp with more weight. not to mention the fact that, spinning, grabbing, jerking, is hard on equipment.

 

[jenkinsph]

The tractor weight is as important as hp. A high hp tractor that is light will struggle more than a similar hp that weighs more.

this is a most important point that we sometimes wrongly assume everybody is aware of. dont matter how much hp you have, if you cant get it to the ground, its worthless. if i had to choose between the two, i would rather have less hp with more weight. not to mention the fact that, spinning, grabbing, jerking, is hard on equipment.

This is all true to a point, for ground engaging tasks weight equates to traction ability but rototilling uphill the extra weight is working against you. I used to have a 2020 that was similar in hp to my new 4520 it was a great tractor for small ground engaging tasks in open fields. The new 4520 with full weighting still comes in about a ton lower in weight but for manuevering and pulling grades it blows away the heavier 2020. With a heavy 60 hp tractor you can pull a small chisel plow, then disk over it a few times. With less weight though you can use a rototiller and have a drag or plane to smooth it up with fewer trips across the field.

I think everyone can understand that tractor raw material costs are making the tractors lighter, but as tractor users we need to change strategies and pick out implements that work efficiently with the new breed of light tractors.


Steve

 

[roamrdb]

i definitely see the point you are making steve, its all relative, i was leaning more toward the idea of subsoiling and shattering the hardpan. land unused for 15 or so years needs to disturbed deep for max benefit. or pulling a good sized boxscrape like was indicated in the earlier posts. even so there is a point with power to weight ratio no matter what size tractor that makes for efficient traction. best regards

 

[e.myers]

Man. I don't even know where to begin. LOTS of fantastic info here and It's all kind of soaking in.
FWIW, I've all but made up my mind to go with the Kubota L4400. At some point I'll get into my explanation as to why.
Unfortunately, my deadline to come up with all the attachments etc (and make the final decision) is Wednesday (financing offer may end). So, I have a lot of questions to ask regarding implements.
Regardless, I need to get back to this thread and ask some more questions about planting this "field"... and I will. Just let me get the trigger pulled first. Right now I'm thinking based on what everyone has said, that for getting the ground in shape, I can get by with just a tiller (don't even really have to have that but I need one anyway), the old small disc I have and maybe a rented (possibly purchased) broadcast seeder.
I'm starting some more threads under implements to help with the purchase of the implements (tiller primarily).
If anyone wants to take a look there, I'd really like your input.

Really just wanted to chime in for a minute until I can get everything else figured out to say thanks for the help. Will continue with this later.

Eddie

 

[e.myers]

Oops. Guess I was already in the Implement (attachment) forum. Still need to post specific to implements however.

 

[rambler]

Rye is easy to grow, spread it, disk lightly, and watch it grow. Easy.

Legumes fix N, put a little clover or cheap alfalfa seed in with it. Won't see any until next spring, but it will be there - very slow to grow, but once it does, deep roots in 2 years, will fix N in the soil & add green manure.

Tillage radishes or even turnips will gather up nutrients in the ground & keep them near the surface for what you plan to grow next year. Getting late for them, but can still work. The tillage type of raddish can work deep roots & break up hardpans and clay. Again, you can mix these in with the other seeds.

As to your land work, hire someone to deep till your ground with a chisel plow - if someone is dumb enough to do that - or a cat with the rippers on the back - more likely. Your little tracotr will never really do that right.

Everything else a 40 hp tractor will do, and once the cat goes through, the tiller will fluff & level off the soil real nice for you.

One doesn't really make a table-top level field for crops - depends what you intend to grow long term - but you just want it smooth enough to drive on. Not 'level' but 'rolling smooth'.

Turning woodland into cropland typically is a 2 or more year process, if you are trying to do this in 6 months, it's harder work for your equipment.

Just some random thoughts, see what direction you are headed with allt his.

--->Paul

 

[jimgerken]

I own a JD 3720. Its 44 gross HP, hydrostatic, and about 4000 lbs weighted and with loader on. It pulls a 10 foot wheel (not three-point) disk OK. If I had an 8 foot disk, that would be slightly better (could pull faster), but the 10 foot works OK.
I searched about a month ago to find a small Chisel plow, and I don't think anyone makes one small enough for my tractor. I think about four full-size chisel (twisted) shanks is all I could pull. Right now I am considering fabricating one with four shanks and a center sweep, no coulters (have disk), on wheels.
I cleared 9 acres myself this year and all I can tell you is hire a kid with an atv and dump cart to continuously pick up debris and haul it to a pile somewhere. Every time you make some sort of tillage pass you will expose another batch of debris to pick up. On my land, this included roots and sticks, rocks, metal, glass and tires. So i have many piles. You will have wood piles only, hopefully.

 

[e.myers]

Still can't decide how to handle this.
Purchasing an L4400 (44 hp) kubota tomorrow.... one decision out of the way.
Will purchase tiller with it. Need tiller for other things after I get land in order.

Bottom line is it's all on me. I can't afford to hire someone back here to subsoil for me. Need to figure out something that I can do myself- regardless as to how long it takes to do it.

One side of me says to just throw some rye seed out disc it in and let it grow. After I cut the rye, come back in throw out some clover disk that in the stubble and let it grow. Also interested in the notion of using the crops to do the subsoiling (oil seed radish, some other types radish, some other items others have mentioned). Think Alfalfa can do some serious subsoiling also. Some have (sort of anyway) indicated that this will work. Would make it so I don't have to deal with any of the roots. They will decay. Not in any real hurry to get this done, so why not? If it doesn't work, it's got to be better than if I just let it grow up in weeds. Anyone recommend an application rate of rye with this method that would without a doubt give enough cover to keep the weeds at bay? I've heard 75lbs or so per acre... maybe more.

MX track is another issue. Track will be designed as we go. First priority is a turn track. I can't afford to have a buried stump take out one of my boys. They could break something or the bike could get broken. I work on bikes enough as it is and I'd be kicking myself, if my boys got hurt or if I caused myself more work or money because I didn't find the stumps.

I need to find the stumps. Thinking that I would more than likely be able to find the stumps with the discs. All stumps should be near the surface of the ground because the trees are pine and it was forrested and row planted, the cut basically at ground level. This was done twice. Once about ten years ago (these stumps are pretty decayed by now... could kick and fall apart so no big deal to rototiller or motorccyle), and another time about 3 months ago. These are the stumps that would have been removed with the excavator and buried.

Thinking about it, seems like just the row planted pines growing out there should have had at least some subsoiling qualities administered to the soil. What do you think? Maybe the soil is not that hardpack/pan afterall.

Anyway, thinking I want to probably drag something over the property to look for stumps. Disc is one possibility

Something like this is another

Land Pride SF25 Series Scarifier
(started another thread in the attachment forum asking if my 44 hp tractor would pull it)

Also like the idea of an arenavator type implement, but not sure what that would buy me over something like this with a "land plane" dragging behind it, even if I can't get down more than 6 or so inches. Even if I only get down 4 inches, I really think I can find any stumps that might be out there.

Maybe I don't really want to go deep if I'm not planning on "farming" the land for a couple years... then again, the roots just decompose and I don't have to deal with raking them up etc., all the while my rye, clovers, turnips whatever are growing and working up the soil, fixing nitrogen etc.

What do you think?

Thanks again for everyones insight. I'm getting close!