Gas or Diesel

[rubadub]

Lets assume were living in a town of say 20,000 people, most of these towns have a small engine service, and for a few bucks they can get your rig running if it breaks down, or the regular deal in the spring of the year, trying to get it started.

I drove by a couple of guys today trying to start a lawnmower with a pull cord.

Now lets enter the diesel into the picture, it won't start, so where do you take it, its a pretty good chance the small engine guy isn't going to get it going without knowing about the glow plugs, water separators etc.

Okay where is the nearest dealer or guy that works on diesel garden tractors, more in likely at a dealership. So you make an appointment and trailer it out, but wait just a minute here, is the dealer going to line you right away with his diesel mechanic, maybe he will but its a good chance you will be waiting a while, diesel mechanics aren't right around the corner like these small engine guys.

I have a good sized shop with all the tools and have worked on things with four wheels for 55 years, and two summers ago a friend of mine wanted to bring his 430 John Deere diesel to my place to compare water lines to the x728, anyway he trys to start it to drive it off the trailer and it won't start, so he monkeys around with it for a while and says I think its the whachamacall it, because I've never heard the name he called the part he thought it needed.

We had to push it around and into my shop.

If someone is going to buy a diesel garden tractor they should at least find the different names they call the parts, that might help to try to explain to some one over the phone what it sounds like when you crank it over and it tries to fire.

We never did get it running but I did stretch out my Achilles tendon by pushing it up onto his trailer.

Also I have never had to push my John Deere gas machines around ever.

Rob

 

[rubadub]

Here's that 430 diesel, its a pretty nice looking tractor, but he couldn't get it running, I took this picture in front of my house.

Rob

 

[rubadub]

I hope my friend doesn't see this picture, he's a good guy and I wouldn't want him to think I was cutting his tractor down, that isn't my intention, but I have to admit I really like the looks of these 430's hmmm maybe I could get one and put a Kawasaki in it.

Rob

 

[arlen4720]

Lets assume were living in a town of say 20,000 people, most of these towns have a small engine service, and for a few bucks they can get your rig running if it breaks down, or the regular deal in the spring of the year, trying to get it started.

I drove by a couple of guys today trying to start a lawnmower with a pull cord.

Now lets enter the diesel into the picture, it won't start, so where do you take it, its a pretty good chance the small engine guy isn't going to get it going without knowing about the glow plugs, water separators etc.

Okay where is the nearest dealer or guy that works on diesel garden tractors, more in likely at a dealership. So you make an appointment and trailer it out, but wait just a minute here, is the dealer going to line you right away with his diesel mechanic, maybe he will but its a good chance you will be waiting a while, diesel mechanics aren't right around the corner like these small engine guys.

I have a good sized shop with all the tools and have worked on things with four wheels for 55 years, and two summers ago a friend of mine wanted to bring his 430 John Deere diesel to my place to compare water lines to the x728, anyway he trys to start it to drive it off the trailer and it won't start, so he monkeys around with it for a while and says I think its the whachamacall it, because I've never heard the name he called the part he thought it needed.

We had to push it around and into my shop.

If someone is going to buy a diesel garden tractor they should at least find the different names they call the parts, that might help to try to explain to some one over the phone what it sounds like when you crank it over and it tries to fire.

We never did get it running but I did stretch out my Achilles tendon by pushing it up onto his trailer.

Also I have never had to push my John Deere gas machines around ever.

Rob

I will say that your reasons for not buying a diesel are among the the most ridiculous statements that I've ever heard. Lucky for you this is a free country, or you would be in jail by now:laughing:

 

[rboss75]

You know I had to respond to all the comments about fuel consumption, repairs etc etc.

First off if you are buying a lawn & garden tractor, that is used for personal use, that cost over $10,000.00, the tiny cost of fuel, ( gas or diesel) shouldn't even be a thought! We are talking about 6 gallons of fuel. I cut 4 acres of grass at my house with a gas X728 twice until I have to refuel. The cost is around $12.00 a cut That is peanuts in comparison to the cost of the machine. If you can afford the machine you can afford the fuel. It's a garden tractor not a 40 ton excavator!

As for repairs my thoughts are the same.

This is a new, top quality, tractor we are talking about which is covered under warranty. I have been buying John Deere for years and have had very little repairs on all my tractors and the repairs that have been performed are minimal in comparison to the cost of the equipment and I use most of them professionally.

A Diesel engine in this size tractor is just a cool option and that is about the size of it. Like I said in my other post if you are ordering the tractor get the diesel. If the dealer has a gas job in stock and you can save a few thousand dollars if you take it off his hands you would be a fool if you did not take it.

You will not regret either one( gas or diesel )

Good Luck.

 

[Oldoak]

Well, it's quit obvious why rubadub couldn't get that 430 diesel running.

 

[Mechanized ME]

You know I had to respond to all the comments about fuel consumption, repairs etc etc.

First off if you are buying a lawn & garden tractor, that is used for personal use, that cost over $10,000.00, the tiny cost of fuel, ( gas or diesel) shouldn't even be a thought! We are talking about 6 gallons of fuel. I cut 4 acres of grass at my house with a gas X728 twice until I have to refuel. The cost is around $12.00 a cut That is peanuts in comparison to the cost of the machine. If you can afford the machine you can afford the fuel. It's a garden tractor not a 40 ton excavator!

As for repairs my thoughts are the same.

This is a new, top quality, tractor we are talking about which is covered under warranty. I have been buying John Deere for years and have had very little repairs on all my tractors and the repairs that have been performed are minimal in comparison to the cost of the equipment and I use most of them professionally.

A Diesel engine in this size tractor is just a cool option and that is about the size of it. Like I said in my other post if you are ordering the tractor get the diesel. If the dealer has a gas job in stock and you can save a few thousand dollars if you take it off his hands you would be a fool if you did not take it.

You will not regret either one( gas or diesel )

Good Luck.

Good morning rboss75
Bravo! I couldn't have said better!

 

[JDTank]

I will say that your reasons for not buying a diesel are among the the most ridiculous statements that I've ever heard. Lucky for you this is a free country, or you would be in jail by now:laughing:

Amen to that.

Glow plugs? Not an issue, easy to change, IF you would ever need to do.

That gas Kawi engine is fuel injected, it has sensors, and circuit boards. If one of those fails, you would be just as stumped as if you were trying to work on a diesel. At that point, either way it's going back to the dealer. The beauty of a diesel engine is you will very likely never have to work on it. Diesel engines are simple by design.

I am a small engine mechanic for a living, and I see people with old fashioned ideas all the time. "Stick with gas, it's easy" That is backwards thinking of a previous era. In this world today, everything should be diesel. The efficiency is too great to ignore. North America is way behind as far as I am concerned. Go to Europe and try to find anything gas powered, good luck. They see how beneficial it is to use diesel engines with incredible MPG and tons of torque to boot. What's not to like?

Whoever said 0.9 Gal/Hr vs 1.1 Gal/HR is out to lunch. Forgive my Canadian math, but my X740 burns about 3 liters per hour, sometimes a little less if it is light work. It isn't even broken in yet with only 23 hours on the clock. My neighbor with an X728 at 230 hours is burning close to 5 liters per hour. His fuel consumption is almost double that of mine. I put in 25 liters of diesel and I can run for 8 - 9 hours straight. He puts in 25 liters of gas and needs more fuel in 5 hours time. It isn't just the cost that begs an argument. Do you want to get gasoline all the time? Do you want to have to keep and fill 5 gas cans? That gets old fast, on your back and your mind.

Now, as rboss75 mentioned, these are just garden tractors. He is correct, if you can afford to spend $10,000 + on a machine to cut your lawn with...you better not be complaining about purchasing fuel. HOWEVER, if you have the chance to choose, why not get the diesel? If you want to talk dollars, don't forget resale value. Resale is very important and a lot of people overlook it. All the dealerships in my area can't keep used X7 diesels to save their lives. The lot IS full of gas powered X7's though, and they sit for months before they sell for bottom dollar to reluctant buyers. At least that is how they work around here.

Sorry to sound like a J.A, but I feel you are being misinformed, and steered away from something that is very good, simply because of old fashioned ideas from some others. If I was any kind of Government authority, I would ban the production of gasoline powered vehicles.

Don't let a diesel engine intimidate you. These small Yanmar engines are built for industrial applications, for a hard life. They are incredibly reliable, there is a 98% chance you will NEVER have to repair anything on, or in these diesel engines.

 

[Dashe]

Please don't misunderstand what I am saying, x700 series diesels are great machines and so are the gas models but when you get down to the basics, a gas powered x700 will do the same amount of work as its diesel counterpart, do it as long as the diesel for $1000 less in initial costs. To me a $1000 is a lot to pay for a red hat. If you are running a lot of diesel equipment, with access to off the road fuel, it might pay.

 

[JDTank]

Please don't misunderstand what I am saying, x700 series diesels are great machines and so are the gas models but when you get down to the basics, a gas powered x700 will do the same amount of work as its diesel counterpart, do it as long as the diesel for $1000 less in initial costs. To me a $1000 is a lot to pay for a red hat. If you are running a lot of diesel equipment, with access to off the road fuel, it might pay.

Do the work as long as a diesel? I completely disagree.

You cannot argue that a gasoline engine will last as long as a diesel, because it has been proven time and time again that is not true.

Late last year I seen an older X495 at my dealership being serviced. I was standing there talking to the mechanic working on it, when I noticed the key was on. I seen a lot of digits and was intrigued. I stepped in closer to see the machine had close to 5,000 hours on it. Turns out it was a small landscape company who runs it 11 months of the year, 5 - 7 days a week. It was purchased new years ago and maintained by the dealer. That engine had never been working on internally. It showed the same compression as the specs for a new engine.

You show me a gas engine that has been worked hard in a tractor that has lasted to the 5,000 hour mark.

I used to be a long haul truck driver, and I owned my own rig. When I sold my truck in 2010, my odometer read 1,562,064 KM, or 970,621 miles. The only internal engine work I ever had to perform was when an injector wiring harness rubbed through under the valve covers. This shorted out an injector, causing the engine to run on 5 out of 6 holes. I don't consider that a mechanical failure as it was the wiring harness, and no metal pieces themselves. That truck is still working today, 3 years later, pulling tri-axle gravel trailers grossing 100,000 pounds 5 days a week. No internal engine work has be done yet. The owner is asking for it IMO, because it will fail sometime soon I suspect, but that is his choice.

Now, that is a class 8 diesel engine, designed to last 1,000,000 miles. I don't expect that kind of life out of a small Yanmar 24HP engine. However, I guarantee you, the Yanmar diesel WILL outlast any gas engine in a tractor. Diesel engines are built much tougher than gas engines so that they can handle the violent explosion of compressing diesel and air. Gas engines just ignite fuel in the cylinder, it burns, and moves your piston. In a diesel engine, there is an explosion inside that cylinder, not a fire. That is why diesel engines have such greater torque. When diesels are designed, they are built for abuse, and longevity.

Take it for what you will, I think this is a constructive argument. However, you will never convince me that a gasoline powered X700 series will outlast a diesel powered X700 series as far as engines are concerned. If your a home owner or property owner, and you will never put enough hours on your machine to prove me wrong, than obviously the point is moot. If you ARE going to hour out your machine, that is when I would say my argument stands.

 

[Dashe]

I will agree that a large diesel in a truck will most likely out last a gas engine in a truck but we are not comparing apples to apples. It is not my point to convince you one way or the other, you are convinced that your diesel is a longer lasting engine then the gas equivalent that is all right. But the data doesn't support it nor does my experience working with both types of engines. I think if theses machines are well cared for maintenance wise, the hours don't matter that much either. The great thing about this forum is the passion that we have for our great machines and I enjoy sharing different points of view. I would hope that neither one of us are able to put enough hours on our machines to prove which one last the longest. Our purpose on this forum is to share our experience, advice and opinions and so the OP can make his mind up.

 

[Jimh4662]

Well said jdtank. Most additives are added at the pump. I add some more when I put in in my 20 gal, portable. I have a 4110 and only issue was electrical. Not sure I didn't cause it my self with jumping it. 13 years Zero diesel problems. Only add a couple ounces of diesel kleen. At 50 hrs changed all fluids to synthetic. That was in 2002. Annual change the engine oil. As for same performance as gas. No don't think so. Had a 445 took my hill at a speed to continue cutting and travel. Mower deck slowed so I slowed movement. My new x758 took the hill, and the torque on that diesel never missed and RPM. As for not needed 4wd, that is for the owner not for spectators. Think of what you may need and figure what if situations. Will you need something to push snow, dirt? I pull a cyclone rake in the fall. If you are not sure what it is look it up. When it is full heading for the dump location it will drag you around. I tried 2wd.....so. Now I believe in only God knows what tomorrow will bring. I like doing Less with More. Life is short.

 

[rboss75]

I truly believe that none of us on this tractor forum will live longer then a well maintained gas or diesel engine in this size machine. Like JD tank said the point is moot.

Every spring I go out to the barn and start my uncle's original well maintained 1968 JD 112 gas garden tractor and she purrs like a kitten. And yes i do use it for some chores and even cut grass with it sometimes just or fun. My uncle is long gone but his gas garden tractor keeps on going and hopefully my little guy will be starting and using my well maintained x728 and his great uncle's 112 years after I am gone

My Ford 2000 gas job had over 4000 hrs when i sold it for good money and my Ford 4000 gas job has over 3000 hrs and keeps on going.

BUT I LOVE MY JOHN DEERE DIESEL TRACTORS!!

 

[Code54]

Before you buy the diesel I would make sure I know what I'm getting into. Glow plugs, lots of additives, Auto Zone sells diesel additives by the pallet load. Fuel gelling, longer warms up with the engine shaking, cold weather is a problem for a lot of diesels.

Water separators, that's a whole different ballgame all by itself.

How about warming up a diesel in your attached garage, get ready for a smoke out. One guy wrote in he always has soot on the front of his x7 after blowing snow or mowing grass.

Diesel is always higher priced then gas, and don't forget the storage of diesel fuel, and how far do you have to go to get it.

Rob

SORRY BUT I CAN NOT AGREE WITH THIS AT ALL! What additives - I run 2 Kubota's and a truck without any additives and no problems in the least. They start great all winter (heck it is what we plow with when the snow flies) and water separators never have been any more of a pain than a gas filter on a gasser. This is VERY old thinking and not the case anymore. Our little diesel tractor with 48" finish mower uses less than my 20 inch Honda push mower! I personally would buy the diesel knowing that down the road I can get my money back in resale and have the torque advantages the entire time I own it.

 

[rubadub]

You guys keep telling yourselfs how good and cheap to run these diesels are, but I have the time to read about things like this (been retired for 10 years) and these diesels have issues, especially the smaller ones in the garden tractors.

Diesels need to run a while when you start them up, and when they start telling Johnny come lately he needs one, that's the problem, how much grass are they cutting or how many hours. These diesels need good fresh fuel.

By the time you start one up [they shake so bad] there like an old wet bird dog shaking themselves off, the gas job would have a lot of the yard all ready cut.

Diesels have their place, but when you're spending only an hour or two cutting your grass it probably won't run good after a while.

If you don't take care of that fuel you will be using some additives, then along with the higher price of diesel fuel to start with. Its a no brainer, get a gasoline motor.

There are lots of Auto zones around, go down and ask the guy at the counter if they sell much diesel fuel additive.



Rob

 

[rubadub]

I almost forgot, if you have a diesel you might have to travel a bit out your way to get it = $$$

Then the big one, what kind of diesel fuel are you getting and how fresh is it, gelled diesel fuel is not good.

Rob

 

[eagle107]

I almost forgot, if you have a diesel you might have to travel a bit out your way to get it = $$$

Then the big one, what kind of diesel fuel are you getting and how fresh is it, gelled diesel fuel is not good.

Rob

I respect your opinion about gas engines and if you look at the JD sales numbers for the garden tractors, most people in general (not on this forum) will purchase a gas engine because it is what they know; that is why you will find more gas X700 series out there than diesel versions. However, your facts about diesels shaking and finding fuel are not correct. First, diesel engine "shake" or vibration is very minimal especially with the rubber isolators JD uses for the engine mounts. Today's diesel engine technology makes a lot of the issues you are stating moot. My X748 does not shake as you state nor does my 4520, which is a much bigger engine. Second, as for not finding diesel fuel, that is hard to believe. Where I live, diesel is found at almost every gas station. If you are referring to off-road diesel, then yes, that can be harder to find. Lastly, as for diesel fuel gelling, I have not see that happen since I was a little kid back in the 80s when my dad left his diesel car outside in the winter time. If you keep your tractors indoors, like most of us do, the gelling issue should not happen; if you are concerned about it, use an additive. Not here to convince you that a diesel is better than gas, but the facts you are stating are outdated.

 

[rboss75]

I respect your opinion about gas engines and if you look at the JD sales numbers for the garden tractors, most people (not on this forum) will purchase a gas engine because it is what they know; that is why you will find more gas X700 series out there than diesel versions. However, your facts about diesels shaking and finding fuel are not correct. First, diesel engine shake or vibration is very minimal especially with the rubber isolators JD for the engine mounts. Today's diesel technology make a lot of the issues you are stating moot. My X748 does not shake as you state nor does my 4520 which is a much bigger engine. Second, as for not finding diesel fuel, that is hard to believe. Where I live, diesel is found at almost every gas station. If you are referring to off-road diesel, then yes, that can be harder to find. Lastly, as for diesel fuel gelling, I have not see that happen since I was a little kid back in the 80s when my dad left his car outside in the winter time. If you keep your tractors indoors, like most of us do, the gelling issue should not happen; if you are concerned about it, use an additive. Not here to convince you that a diesel is better than gas, but the facts you are stating are outdated.

Eagle107 you are right on the money. But just to add to your post, John Deere states to use low sulfur diesel fuel only in my newer machines. Now I have ran both off road & on road in all my tractors and there is deference on how they run. Now when I have fuel delivered at the farm all I have delivered now is on road. It does cost more but I right it off at the end of the year but the tractors run so much cleaner and I like that!

 

[Dashe]

We all can agree that all of us, John Deere fans, are passionate about our tractors! Based upon all these opinions, I wonder what the OP final decision will be?

 

[murphy1244]

Diesel stores better than gas. Diesels warm up faster than gas too.