Ford 1700 starting problems

[cjfling]

OK, I checked the tightness of the glow plugs and they were fine. I then pulled the fuel hose off from the injector pump to check for flow. There was a steady stream that was a little less then the thickness of a plain pencil (sorry for the lack of a technical term/measurement). While I had it off I decide to just drain the off road/red diesel. As you can imagine the tank was full so it was taking a while. Towards the end the flow really slowed down. At that point I decided to turn the valve off and remove the tank. After getting the fuel out, I found a piece of rusted sheet metal about a half inch by inch and half. I also heard something banging around in the tank. With a flashlight a could see what appears to be a rusted, metal rod/tubing about 8 inches long. In the field I was wasn't able to get it out, but I plan to take some needle nose pliers to it later today. With the light, I could definitely see some rusting in the tank. I'm guessing the long piece could even be off a seam inside the tank. As promised, here are some pics...



Here is the new alternator I installed and the starter that was rebuilt.



Here is the famous injector pump:



Off hand does anyone know where that wire that is tapped up is supposed to go. I haven't looked in the book yet, but it travels to that area with the same wire that powers the glow plugs. More pictures to come...

Thanks to all.

 

[jinman]

Off hand does anyone know where that wire that is tapped up is supposed to go. I haven't looked in the book yet, but it travels to that area with the same wire that powers the glow plugs. More pictures to come...

Thanks to all.

From a picture in Pete Clausen's thread, I think that wire goes to an oil pressure sensing element down near to where the oil dipstick is located.

 

[randy41]

the long metal rod/tubing could be for the fuel gauge....does your fuel gauge work?

 

[JC-jetro]

Jim,
You are right. The wire does go to oil pressure sending unit.



Randy,

1700 does not have fuel gauge but it has a sight glass only that is not glass and is only a tube. mine was so brown that I could not see level of fuel in the tank so I changes it with 1/4" Poly Ethelyn clear tubing.




CJ,

Make sure that you open the screws partially open for air in the bowl to scape. On big screw on the upper right side of the injector can be opened to remove the air all the way up to the plunger/pistons of the pump. You then crack the nuts on injector pump (two) and crank a few times to see diesel and air bubbles coming out. When the fuel come up without bubble tighten the nuts, preheat , Make sure to cross you fingers, praying would not hurt either and crank.


JC,


ps. I have in the last 8 years ran my tank empty twice. 1st time I did not know what was going on, second time I was mowing the ditch in front of the property. I was so focused not to roll over the tractor so I lost my focus of how much diesel I had. Well, shame on me , yesterday for the 3rd time I lost prime to the injector pump in the same dang ditch, exactly when it happens 5-6 years ago. Th funny thing was, I knew I was low on diesel, Mowed the right of way just before I went to the barn but when I tried to come out of ditch got the brush hog stuck for just 2 seconds, and that was enough for the fuel level to get cockeyed in the tank and pump sucked air. I was not a happy camper.

 

[cjfling]

I got my needle nose pliers out and removed an 8 inch stick. I guess either someone was jacking with me or they had used it to check the fuel level and dropped it in. The rusting in the tank was minor from what I can see. I swished around some fresh fuel to clean out the tank and drained it for burning. I hooked everything back up added about a gallon of the same fuel I had drained, turned the tank back on, bled the fuel system, and still had the same starting issue. It would turn over almost as fast as when it's actually running and then as soon as you let go of the key it would die. I had a second person there with me this time and then helped me pull it back into the barn so it wasn't sitting out. Next time I'm out, I'm going to pull the hose from the injector and check the flow again. When I had the tank out, I saw a rubber piece when I removed the shut off valve from the tank that had a really small whole in it for the fuel to pass. I'm assuming that is supposed to be there for a gasket/seal. It looked like it belonged, but the hole sure look small for the amount of fuel I saw coming out of the hose to the injector the first time. After I get this fixed up, I'll look in to that oil pressure sending unit. I'm pretty sure there is a pipe nipple in that hole with a gauge on it. You can see the top of the gauge in the bottom left of this pic.


Thanks again for replies.

 

[mostly_gas]

When trying to start, do you get any smoke at all, if so what color is it?

 

[JC-jetro]

Cj,

I'm not completely convinced that you fuel system is bled of air fully. You can take the nuts( two) completely lose and expose the end of the injector pipes before going to injectors. have someone crank and you observe flow or you can do it while seated and looking at the end. You must have small amount of pulsating fuel coming out without any bubbles. Air is compressible but fluid is not, even small amount of air in the line can compress back and forth without against the 2000+ psi that injector spring can cause. 2000 psi is not the stiffness of the spring but the pressure to squeeze the spring is about 2000 + psi. verify flow and report back with the result. also make sure to open up the screw next to a plate (plate with screws ) is open so by gravity air can be bled right up to pump cam mechanism.



JC,

 

[cjfling]

Mostly_gas,

I do get smoke and always do for about the first five minutes of running. It's white to a white/blue in color.

JC,

Next time I have someone there, I will pull the fuel line off the injector pump while cranking on it. The last time I bled the system, it took a while for fuel to reach fuel filter bowl bleed screws and then also the injector. When bleeding, my understanding is to start bleeding at the screws on the filter/bowl, then close those screws, and move on to the injector screw? Does that seem right? Before I start any of this, I'm going to dump the fuel in the bowl and double check the filter install. I hadn't done that previously.

Thanks to all.

 

[JC-jetro]

CJ,

You need to look at the tank outlet height in regards to filter intake and injector intake. On some tractors like my Kubota there is a small transfer pump before the injector.

In your 1700 system is gravity type all the way to the inlet of the pump. following is the process you need to go thru where you can also see visual feed back of what's going on.

1- Make sure tank has fuel above the tank outlet. Just imagine you changed the filter and it dry and you just put it in with the tank valve in closed position. when you open the valve you will see no flow as the air is trapped and can not escape the filter bowl.

2-There are two screws on the bulb as you open the first one partially you should quickly see the bowl start filling up and air escaping from the screw hole you just loosened. Continue doing so till bowl is full and only fuel is coming out. You need to close first screw there. Then open the second screw that removes the air on piping on bowl cap. As soon as only fuel comes out close the screw just the same. So far you have bled air all the way to outlet of the filter.

3-Now you need to bleed air from the rubber hose to the inlet of the injector. There is a large screw on the top right (about 3 o.clock), next to the plate with 3 screws. loosen the screw there and all the air is bled just to the inlet of injector pump.


so far all you have done is by gravity and nothing else. The last piece is to remove air out of the metal pipe to each individual injector. This has to be done by cranking the engine. as I said before air is compressible and fuel is not. You can crank all day and the air will just happily pulsate back and fore with no pumping.

4- loosen the nut and crank engine a few time till the fuel travel up to injector while expelling the air. Once you see solid fuel and no bubble then tighten the nut , preheat and try to start.


JC,

 

[cjfling]

JC,

OK. I'm going to dump the fuel in the bowl and start from scratch with your procedure above. I've never bled all the way to each individual injector.

Thx

 

[JC-jetro]

JC,

OK. I'm going to dump the fuel in the bowl and start from scratch with your procedure above. I've never bled all the way to each individual injector.

Thx

CJ,

Dumping fuel from he bowl is not necessary. I only brought it up to emphasize the gravity nature flow and how fuel replaces the air as the bleed screw is opens. It was mentioned for the clarity.

JC,

 

[cjfling]

For a long needed update, I finally got to get back to checking the fuel/injection system. I started by adding more fuel to the tank. The tank height looks to be in the factory position. All of the rubber pads that the tank sits on are still there. The bottom of the tank is higher than the fuel filter bowl. I turned off the fuel cut off below the tank and again dumped the fuel from the bowl. There was a little more sediment in the botton of the bowl that I clean out with a little gas and a tooth brush. I verified the filter was still in the right spot and put on the fuel bowl back on.

I then turned the fuel supply back on. The bowl filled up with fuel in about two seconds. I then went on to the two bleed screws about the fuel bowl. I opened both at the same time and fuel streamed out of the first one and trickled out of the second on. I closed the first on and then the second one started to stream. I then moved on to the bleed screw on the injector pump. Upon openning that one, I got a steady trickle of fuel. From there I moved on to the two metal lines feeding the injectors. I totally took the nut off the left one and with my extra set of hands turning the key, I watched a pulsing of fuel squirting out about every 3/4s of a second. I put that nut back on and went to the right injector line. With the nut off, I saw the same pulsing of fuel.

I replaced the nut and then turned the key switch to the left to warm the glow plugs for about 15 seconds. I then tried to start it with the fuel lever at about half. It turned over, but didn't start. I put the fuel lever at fuel throttle and the engine turned over a little faster for a moment and then back to the previous speed. All this time the exhaust is white. Thinking the battery could be a little week from all the current and past troubleshooting, I hooked my truck up with jumper cables, but got the same result.

I moved on to pulling out the glow plugs. I noticed they didn't seem warm at all. I put them mostly back in the block and connected a jumper wire directly from the positive battery terminal to the plugs and help for 15 seconds. I then took them back out of the block to find them to hot to touch and smoking with what appeared to be some "carbon" on them, but no where near red as I saw in someone's past post. Could this be caused by bad glow plugs? Is there a test that can be done on the glow plugs? I didn't notice that they do cool off fairly fast.

Someone else I discuss these issues with is persistant in telling me to pull start the tractor. If told him in the manual that it specifically says not to pull start it. Does anyone know if it is mechanically OK to pull start it and the manual is just saying no as a safety precaution?

Thanks for your help!

 

[JC-jetro]

Cj,

all you have done is right and as suggested with the right sequence. You have solved the fuel delivery issue. up to injector. There are couple of things that can make starting difficult from here. one being glow plug that is not heating and assisting the combustion. I have taken my glow plugs off but did not glow it directly and measured the temp. I'm out of town and can't do that for compassion. Might be able to do it next weekend. Secondly if you do not get a good spray patten from your injector it'll very difficult to start. fuel has to come atomized in to the combustion chamber to ignite by heat of compressions. If you have leaky valve or bad piston ring you may not have the compression you need. There is no issue with pull stating as long as you do it in higher gear so you will not stress out the low gear and damage to transmission. Be ready to communicate well with the driver that is pulling you and the rig and ready to pop the gear in neutral or clutch to cut power to transmisson. Make sure the throttle is in the middle when pull starting.

JC,

 

[cjfling]

Again thanks for your repsonse. I would be interested in the temp. results of your glow plugs. I'm pretty sure there is a test for the injectors if I can get them out? I will probably try the pull starting when I get a chance.

 

[JC-jetro]

CJ,

Professional shops use hand operated pump to build up the required pressure (2000 + psi) range to simulate injector operation inside a safe glass vessel in order to check the atomization and spray pattern. I have heard guys checked the patter against some card board. I don't have spec of the pattern size @ what distance to the card board. I'd probably look for a round and good atomization by visual inspection. Be warned that diesel at that pressure can easily puncture skin surface causing severe injuries.


JC,

 

[cjfling]

I've been trying to find a place to just order replacement injectors. I found the glow plugs at Weaver's Compact Tractor parts, but they don't list the injectors for the 1700. Anyone have any idea of another place that has them? Looking for a place locally to test the existing injectors, but if I can get some new or rebuilt ones reasonably I'd just replace them and the glow plugs. I did try pull starting it in the highest gear. The tires locked up and even turned in the reverse direction a bit when I let out the clutch. In one try it started turning the engine, but didn't start. The pull speed was just past idle of a Chevy Silverado diesel.

 

[JC-jetro]

Cj,

I don't have a source for Injector repair. I did actually looked up some on line sources and did not get a good hit. potentially, if injector squirt fuel in to combustion chamber rather than atomizing (spraying) would have the same result with pull starting vs starter. None of this work is easy. If I had the same situation on a 2 cylinder engine like 1700 would take a chance of taking the injector off by undoing the fuel line. I'd reconnect the injector to fuel pump off the tractor and would try to check the spray pattern in to an apple box with proper eye protection. obviously you need someone to crank the engine enough for you to see the pattern. If I get good spray pattern then would look elsewhere for the root of the problem. May be your injector is good but you have valve or ring problem not allowing proper compression of fuel air mixture leading to lack of combustion, who knows?. If the injector only squirt fuel then I might open it up and clean and inspect the components. You can go to NH website and see parts breakdown of your injector. I would make sure to soak all components in diesel fuel during the inspection, may be you have some fouling causing the bad spray pattern. take macro pics and make sure don't mix and match any of the components from 2 injectors and the orientation of components on how they went together before dis assembly.

Your best bet still would be to find a professional shop to inspect your injectors.

JC,


Look at PDF below for your injector.

 

[rayikeo2]

I've been trying to find a place to just order replacement injectors. I found the glow plugs at Weaver's Compact Tractor parts, but they don't list the injectors for the 1700. Anyone have any idea of another place that has them? Looking for a place locally to test the existing injectors, but if I can get some new or rebuilt ones reasonably I'd just replace them and the glow plugs. I did try pull starting it in the highest gear. The tires locked up and even turned in the reverse direction a bit when I let out the clutch. In one try it started turning the engine, but didn't start. The pull speed was just past idle of a Chevy Silverado diesel.

I am trying to understand what your problem is. Here is what I am reading, You got the tractor in August of 2013 and you have never had it running? Is that correct or am I missing something? I haven't read anything that states you have got it started. Is that correct?

The ign switch controls the glow plugs, the starter and also affects the alternator charging and the dash lights. Have you put in a new ignition switch? If not, get a new one before you spend mega bucks on a new alternator and injectors. Spend money on a switch because you are going to need one soon even if it is good today. It may cure all of your other problems. It did cure my starting problems on my 1700.

 

[JC-jetro]

Ray,

1700 as you know does not have fuel solenoid kill switch. CJ should be able to pull start it no matter what the condition of switch on his rig. The only safety 1700 has is the "neutral safety switch". He can crank and turn the engine over, so neutral safety is working like it should. He just can't get it to run continously leading to speculation of fuel related issues.

JC,

 

[rayikeo2]

Ray,

1700 as you know does not have fuel solenoid kill switch. CJ should be able to pull start it no matter what the condition of switch on his rig. The only safety 1700 has is the "neutral safety switch". He can crank and turn the engine over, so neutral safety is working like it should. He just can't get it to run continously leading to speculation of fuel related issues.

JC,

Hi JC, I have never tried to pull start a diesel. I would think it would take some distance in order to build up enough compression and heat to fire the engine enough to start. My tractor doesn't have a neutral safety that I am aware of. It has a clutch switch that cuts power to the starter if the clutch isn't depressed. I don't know if that would have any effect on pull starting. It seems like CJ has covered most of the fuel problems. The key switch does power the glow plugs if it is working right. I am thinking his cold start aids are not working because of the IGN switch. Pull start would have to make enough revolutions to produce both heat and compression. That would take more than just popping the clutch. It would need to really spin the engine which would be taking a chance of damage to the drive line and/or engine.