Ford 1700 starting problems

[JC-jetro]

Howdy Ray,

It will be difficult to start a cold diesel engine for sure. With good valves (adjusted and timed) and good piston ring then compression is adequate cold or hot and glow plug for sure can facilitate the ignition. The clutch safety switch that you are talking about is indeed your "neutral Safety switch". When you press the clutch it separates transmission from engine no matter which gear tractor is in or whether the gear is neutral. The switch that is connected to clutch pedal is a normally open switch by action of a spring. Once you press the clutch the switch is closed and completes the starting circuit that juices up the starter. CJ can if he chooses to glow the plugs for 20 seconds and then try the pull start as well. As you know , diesel does not have ignition so as long as you have fuel coming in to combustion chamber in an atomized manner coupled by reciprocation of pistons ( by pulling and popping the clutch or starter motor) the ignition should happen. It ain't happening with CJ's rig.

JC,

Hi JC, I have never tried to pull start a diesel. I would think it would take some distance in order to build up enough compression and heat to fire the engine enough to start. My tractor doesn't have a neutral safety that I am aware of. It has a clutch switch that cuts power to the starter if the clutch isn't depressed. I don't know if that would have any effect on pull starting. It seems like CJ has covered most of the fuel problems. The key switch does power the glow plugs if it is working right. I am thinking his cold start aids are not working because of the IGN switch. Pull start would have to make enough revolutions to produce both heat and compression. That would take more than just popping the clutch. It would need to really spin the engine which would be taking a chance of damage to the drive line and/or engine.

 

[cjfling]

Ray,

Thanks for your input. After getting the tractor, I had to do some work to get it running. I had the starter rebuilt, replaced the alternator, and some other stuff. The final issue with that string of repairs was the starting switch which I replaced and documented in this thread. Since that time, I shredded with it on a couple of occasions for a total of 6 hours. Then all this happened. It cracks, but never starts. At times, while cranking, it sounds like it's running and as soon as you let go of the starting switch it dies. My 1700 does have the neutral safety switch under the clutch pedal. The starting switch does activate the glow plugs, b\c I felt them warm. My question on the glow plugs was how hot are they supposed to get. Mine where to hot to touch, but not red like I saw on another 1700 thread on this forum. I did activate the glow plugs for 15 seconds prior to trying the pull start. I don't intend to try the pull start again, because of the strange result I also posted on this thread.

JC,

I will try pulling the injectors and the spray into a box suggestion. I think I have metal lines going to the injectors, so I'm not sure if I will be able to maneuver them in a position for the suggested test. I will also probably take them to a diesel shop.

Thanks to you both for your continued help!

 

[JC-jetro]

CJ,

if you're planning to take the injector to a shop then You don't want to damage anything inadvertently. Why not get a price estimate from them first and then judge your best option. Puling the injector off will be easy but in order not to damage fuel delivery pipes you'll need to loosen up and rotate the pipe at the injector pump as well which will add potential for leak later on. Damage to delivery pipe can be eliminated by just taking the injectors. At the shop they will be able to rig it to a hand pump for spray patten checking without taking the injectors apart. I suppose that should not take them much time and effort. Real cost comes when they disassemble the injectors to check components because of improper spray. If spray test turns out good then back to the drawing board and potential for bad injector pump not being bale to make pressure against injector spring.

JC,

Ray,


JC,

I will try pulling the injectors and the spray into a box suggestion. I think I have metal lines going to the injectors, so I'm not sure if I will be able to maneuver them in a position for the suggested test. I will also probably take them to a diesel shop.

Thanks to you both for your continued help!

 

[cjfling]

So you are saying I should take the tractor to the shop for the test to avoid having to turn the metal lines or pull the injectors to take it to them?

 

[JC-jetro]

My suggestion is to call them first. You do not need to take the tractor to them. Taking injector off is not difficult and eliminates damage to the pipe as it is formed in to a special shape (it is not flex pipe). Even if you haul the tractor to them, they have to park it either inside or outside and take the injectors off to check and you end up with the cost of taking the tractor back and forth. They can not test injector spray pattern without taking it off the tractor. Now if you have a trailer and truck to take the tractor to the shop and you're cool with it then that'll be fine too.


JC,

PS. Look at the pdf attachment for more info. Info below is universal.

So you are saying I should take the tractor to the shop for the test to avoid having to turn the metal lines or pull the injectors to take it to them?

 

[cjfling]

I got the injectors out and took them to a Deere dealer for testing. They sprayed at 1700psi and he said it should have been around 2600psi. He also said the fuel came out as a stream instead of a mist/cloud. They gave me the name of a guy that might be able to rebuild them. Additionally, I was told by a shade tree type mechanic that he had luck taking the injectors apart and soaking in desiel to clean. What do you think about the cleaning? I guess it depends on how expensive the rebuild estimate is.

Thanks

 

[Hooked_on_HP]

I got the injectors out and took them to a Deere dealer for testing. They sprayed at 1700psi and he said it should have been around 2600psi. He also said the fuel came out as a stream instead of a mist/cloud. They gave me the name of a guy that might be able to rebuild them. Additionally, I was told by a shade tree type mechanic that he had luck taking the injectors apart and soaking in desiel to clean. What do you think about the cleaning? I guess it depends on how expensive the rebuild estimate is.

Thanks

If soaking them in diesel would clean them they would be self cleaning. Pop off pressure being low is usually a result of wear. Yours can be repaired by a pump shop. You can buy remaned injectors from NH for 148.oo each.
bill

 

[Hooked_on_HP]

I just checked the service manual and it says the pop pressure is 1700 not 2600. The injector that is spraying a stream needs to be repaired or replaced. If you are going to get them repaired take them to a shop that specializes in pump and injector repair. It takes special tools to repair and calibrate pumps and injectors. Without the proper tools they are just guessing.

Bill

 

[JC-jetro]

I got the injectors out and took them to a Deere dealer for testing. They sprayed at 1700psi and he said it should have been around 2600psi. He also said the fuel came out as a stream instead of a mist/cloud. They gave me the name of a guy that might be able to rebuild them. Additionally, I was told by a shade tree type mechanic that he had luck taking the injectors apart and soaking in desiel to clean. What do you think about the cleaning? I guess it depends on how expensive the rebuild estimate is.

Thanks

So we go back to what I suspected all along. I never had to deal myself with that repair and it does require special tooling and knowledge. Separating components of injectors is simple. What I would do it to first find a good source of repair locally. I then take and disassemble one injector at a time and very carefully dissemble a soak all in diesel. I look at the any indentation on the disk before the nozzle and make sure to put back exactly how I opened it. I don't think you need to worry much on the spring itself loosing stiffness. I might take a tiny strand of soft copper out a some stranded wire and try to clean the hole in the injector. I let it all soak in a small bowl and might add a few drop of commercial injector cleaner in there and cover the bowl with plastic and would set it for 24 hrs someplace warm. I do the same for the second injector in a separate bowl. One injector at a time I put things back together and on the tractor, say a little prayer and fire the tractor up. if it works then that'll be just marvelous, if not... then I'd go to plan B( professional route).

JC,

 

[cjfling]

I found some remanufactured injectors at Weavers Compact Tractor parts. Funny thing is that I thought I had looked there a while ago as this is the same place I bought the alternator. Anyway, I got them installed and then found my battery was to week to turn it over. I charged the battery with a trickle charger over night and it still didn't have the strength. So I will probably jump it from my truck or my bigger tractor or try charging it again with a regular battery charger. I need to do this soon so I can return he injectors if that didn't help. Also, since the injectors are hard to get, I was debating on keeping my old one instead of sending them in to get my $20 core charge each. That way if I need to replace them again, I have the old ones that can be rebuilt. Of course I'd have the new one also. What do you'll think?

 

[JC-jetro]

Cj,

$20 is not much much. I pay just that to just to have an opportunity to open it all up to have thorough look inside. If you store it for future you want to have probably cover it with some thin oil and package to and put it in a dry place. I don't know if any part of it can rust, probably not?

JC,

I found some remanufactured injectors at Weavers Compact Tractor parts. Funny thing is that I thought I had looked there a while ago as this is the same place I bought the alternator. Anyway, I got them installed and then found my battery was to week to turn it over. I charged the battery with a trickle charger over night and it still didn't have the strength. So I will probably jump it from my truck or my bigger tractor or try charging it again with a regular battery charger. I need to do this soon so I can return he injectors if that didn't help. Also, since the injectors are hard to get, I was debating on keeping my old one instead of sending them in to get my $20 core charge each. That way if I need to replace them again, I have the old ones that can be rebuilt. Of course I'd have the new one also. What do you'll think?

 

[rick 1955]

My 1700 ford cold starts with lots of white smoke runs rough for 2-4 minutes, after it warms up it runs great i have noticed the tail pipe flaper wet also. It starts good on warm or hot starts, just bad on cold. Do any of u guys have simular problems? Or know of a fix for this???

 

[rick 1955]

cjfling

Hello friend my tractor does the same thing with the white smoke on cold starts and runs rough is this a standard problem with these little tractors???

Thanks!!!

 

[cjfling]

Is your tractor loosing coolant? If so I would check the head gasket before much more use to make sure it's not blown and/or the head is cracked. Hopefully you catch the blown gasket before it does more serious damage. Good luck.

My 1700 ford cold starts with lots of white smoke runs rough for 2-4 minutes, after it warms up it runs great i have noticed the tail pipe flaper wet also. It starts good on warm or hot starts, just bad on cold. Do any of u guys have simular problems? Or know of a fix for this???

 

[cjfling]

Time to revived this thread. Tractors been sitting for about 11 months. Where I left off was suspecting the injectors, they tested like they were dirty, and instead of a clean/rebuild I bought re-manufactured ones. Sad to say that didn't work. When I picked back up with the tractor I noticed the coolant was all missing. I drained the oil and you guessed it, coolant was in the oil. Since the oil was cold I new not all of it was coming out so I fashioned a piece of wire to encourage more of it out the drain plug. Then started to dig in to accessing the head gasket. Pulled the injectors and manually turned the engine with a socket. Just about soaked a bystander in an oily/water mix. So coolant was in the head. I continued to turn it to get most of the mixture out. The cylinder closet to the fuel tank seemed to have the most coolant, but it was in both cylinders. Had to take the valve cover off, found no valve cover gasket or flange gasket. Pulled the rocker assembly and pulled the head. The piston closest to the fuel tank was pitted. Soaked up the rest of the coolant/oil mixture and could see on the head gasket on about four spot where there were a failures. A couple near the water jackets and a couple in other spots. What I could feel on the cylinder walls was fairly smooth. While turning the engine with a socket, there was one hard spot as the cylinder closest to the front of the engine was on the way up about half way. Went ahead and pulled the gasket off and looked around on the head more. Couldn't see any cracks so I've gone and ahead and ordered the right gaskets and a thermostat. I priced the head gasket at Hew Holland and it was $100 more than the one I found at compacttractorparts.com. I ordered the other parts from NH and the head gasket from CTP. Next I hope to clean up the head and inspect it more carefully.

Hope all the mechanics and DIYers out there who had been helping me come back out to play as I continue on!

 

[cjfling]

I've cleaned up the head and now have found cracks. I didn't have a camera, but hope to get a picture of it over the weekend. I'm not having much luck finding a reasonable priced head or anyone around my area of south Texas that can fix this one. Ebay had a reman one around $1400 and a third party website listed one for $1000 (but don't know if they have it in stock) both plus shipping. I have a call out on another. I'm getting to the point where I'm not sure if the tractor is worth that additional investment. I've been told of several ways to "repair" it... Bars stop leak, something that is supposed to be better than Bars, silver high temp spray paint, and applying JB Weld to the cracks with a needle. Anyone have any input on the repair, a place in my region that can fix it right, or a more moderately priced replacement head?

Thanks

 

[cjfling]

Here is the injector pump side
Yahoo! - 302 Found

The top of the block with the head bolts
Yahoo! - 302 Found

Bottom of the head
Yahoo! - 302 Found

Crack between valves
Yahoo! - 302 Found

Crack goes down the intake valve(left) just a bit, but not on the exhaust valve(right)
Yahoo! - 302 Found

Crack between water jacket and cylinder
http://flic.kr/p/rxkRif

Burnt valve on the left
http://flic.kr/p/rxkRps

 

[square1]

cj,
How many hours on that machine if you don't mind me asking?
Thanks

 

[Raw Dodge]

That's been leaking a long time, those connecting rods are very beefy,but still Id be concerned about hydrolocked damage.I think I'd pull the pan,and replace the piston that's been eaten away,and make sure the rod bearings weren't pitted from the chocolate milk oil/ coolant....if they are you'll need to pull the engine and go thru the entire thing.....whatever coolant was in there certainly was in bad shape,unless it looks like it was straight water or so weak there were no corrosion inhibitors left...looks to me like maybe previous owner was just adding water daily and avoiding dealing with the problem...I have a 1910, and have replaced the head gasket twice ,due to external coolant leaks...and once for an i frame rebuild...engine parts for these shiburu engines are very very expensive...just a single,piston can be 200.00 if you can still find one...

 

[cjfling]

cj,
How many hours on that machine if you don't mind me asking?
Thanks

I really don't know as I'm pretty sure that gauge is toast. I'll check next time I'm in front of it.