Emergency water pump

[handirifle]

Living rural, like many here, the power grid can go down from time to time. Recently it's because of a pretty large brush fire, still going on. We only lost our power for a short time, but it highlighted the need, once again.

I have some portable generators, enough to run the fridge and the freezer, but they are 110v and the water system (well) pumps are all 220v. So rather than get another generator and keep it running so the pumps can run, what I would like to have, for now, is a gas operated water pump. I would like to be able to fire it up for things like showers, etc.

What I wonder about, is, when all water is turned off, and the pump is running, will it hurt the pump? Is there a certain type of pump I should look for? I could use it for other things when the grid is up, but that seems like an easier way to get water, off grid.


Eventually, a 230v generator might need to go in, since that way the well submersible and pressure pump both could run. I have a 5500 gallon water storage tank, so for a term power outage, I would get by with just a water pump, I think anyway.

My power panel, where the meters are, is 30yds or so from the house, so not a big distance, but since the house is on one meter and the well and my workshop are on another meter, it would seem to make wiring in a single generator, for emergency back up would be complicated, to say the least.

I have thought about plumbing in a 110v pressure pump into the system, that would be plumbed parallel to the main one, then I could run just that pump off one of my generators.

 

[Soundguy]

I think I'd just go with a 240v genny...

however if you go with some sort of gas engine to run a pump, you may need a setup like a gas air compressor uses.. ( and a well pump pressure tank similarly uses ). IE a combination unloader and a pressure switch wtih cut in / cut out.

 

[zzvyb6]

How high is your water table at the moment ? I have a bunch of these one with a 115v motor driven pump jack when the wind is low. This particular one doesn't usually freeze out here. These run around the clock so to speak. A few IBC 300 gal containers would fill up quickly.

 

[jaotguy]

also depends on how deep the water table is ...

gas pumps at the top of the well will only draw down to 21 feet from the pump inlet ... after that , the laws of physics kick in and the water stops .....

 

[gary49]

Could you describe your system more completely? It sounds like you have a deep well with a submersible pump feeding a 5500 gallon storage tank and a pump of some sort at the tank supplying your house, etc. What kind of pump at the tank, is the tank above or below the house, that sort of info.

 

[Diamondpilot]

I would just get a proper gen. I bought a 8550 watt Troy Bilt generator at Lowes on sale for $599. I made the cord out of 25' of 4 conductor #8 and got the 50 amp twist locks on Ebay for about $75 total.

I then got a whole house generator lockout kit on Amazon for my 200 amp pannel. It included the 50 amp weather head box to plug into, the lockout plate for my pannel, and a 50 amp breaker. Total cost was $125.

So for $800 I have a whole houses UL and local utility approved setup that is safe and efficient.

Chris

 

[handirifle]

I have 2 separate pumps. A deep submersible that is sitting 380ft down, that pumps water to my 5500gal storage tank. The tank is required for fire protection, and the well is 400ft deep. Five years ago, when we had the well drilled, the static level was 60ft, but we are now in our 3th straight season of drought, so I am almost afraid to see where the water is now. It still keeps my tank full.

The other pump, supplies pressure for the house, and the fire suppression system (also required). Part of the problem, for hooking up a generator, is as mentioned, I have 2 meters. The one has the well, my shop, and my RV hook up (we lived in 5th wheel while building). The other meter is strictly the house. The big issue is that the meter panel for the house, ONLY has the 200 AMP main breaker and the main wires running from there, to the house. At the house there is another panel inside my garage, that way I do not have to go outside to reset a breaker.

So a 7 or 8K generator, for me is a waste, because the 2 systems are about 130ft apart.

I could easily set one at the house panel, and that would take care of the fridge and freezer, but still no water. I have small ones that can take care of the food, but still no water. My storage tank is about 8ft above house floor level, so gravity will fill the toilets, but not enough for drinking. Thus the gas powered water pump idea. I could start that when needed.

 

[gary49]

Is the pump for the tank submersible or jet? Jet pumps are usually able to work on either voltage. Used to be 120 volt submersible pumps, don't know if they are still available. Jet pump would work fine for you, you have no head pressure to deal with. Solar powered pump for just the house might work as well, that way you would have water at the house with no noise--still would need battery back up or generator for dark or long periods of cloudiness. Control of pressure with gas pump is problematic.

 

[Soundguy]

I then got a whole house generator lockout kit on Amazon for my 200 amp pannel. It included the 50 amp weather head box to plug into, the lockout plate for my pannel, and a 50 amp breaker. Total cost was $125.

Chris

Got a link or a part number for that amazon kit you found. I'm interested.

Hard to mod the panel?

 

[BHD]

getting a 230 volt generator would be the simplest,

I know of ranchers that have cylinders and sucker rod and have gas engines on pump jacks, on there wells, there method is on these seasonal wells (cattle rotated in and out of the pastures), they will measure out X amount of gas pour in the engine start it and it will run just a little longer to fill the stock tanks and then runs out and stops, some prefer this method,

one can put a cylinder on top of a submersible, so one can use both types of pumps on one well with out two pipes, there are few different methods, of setting them up,

I have both in one well on my farm and use the windmill as a primary and the submersible if the wind does not blow, or mill is down, I just pump in to a 9000 gallon tank, and boost the pressure out of the tank with small jet pump, (which could run on 115 volts) if wanted, my tank is 20 foot tall and will gravity feed (very low pressure) but will supply water to all the farm with out electricity,

 

[handirifle]

Both my pumps are jet pumps, the pressure pump needed to be to meet county pressure requirements (50 psi at 35 gpm IIRC) but I would have to rewire it at the pump every time the power went off. That was an $1100 pump, so I don't want to mess with it if it isn't needed. I already had the seals rebuilt once.

I might look into the solar. I could run the generator to recharge the battery(s) is need be. It would be nice to just flip a switch out there. Either that or a 110v plumbed parallel to the jet pump. I hate to run a generator (or gas pump) with all the noise, just to take a shower, but my 110v generators are pretty quiet (Smarter Tools, Costco). With the Solar setup, I wouldn't have to run anything.

Hmmmm Let me do some research on this.

BHD
Yea gravity only give like 1/2psi per foot from what I have read. We can use toilets with no power but takes a long time to refill the tank.

It just occurred to me, that a solar system could probably be set to sense when there is a power outage and not have to be turned on manually.

 

[jwstewar]

I have one of the Champion 3500/4000 Watt generators. I believe I paid $249 for it, I think now they are $329 or so, it will do 220 volt. For that price, that seems like the quickest/easiest solution for this problem. Not like you will be using the generator day in and out. A small generator like this would have more uses than a gas powered water pump.

 

[jaotguy]

OK ... see where you're at now ...

a small 1/3 HP shallow well jet pump in parallel with 2 separate check valves ( one for each pump ) would work ... set the small pump at 5 PSI lower than the main above ground pump .... lower pressure but more than enough for drinking / flushing and showers.... and runs off the 120 gen ...

 

[handirifle]

Yea I am going to price out a battery back up system, with solar or converter charger, and also 230v generator. If I go 230v route, I might as well look at one that will run the submersible. I don't remember what HP the submersible is either. I guess I could size the generator off the breaker size, ie 30 or 40 amp output for 30 or 40 amp breaker. If I go that route I will have to pay an electrician to wire it up for both meters, to keep from back feeding to line.

I could isolate the circuits for the well easily enough, to possibly run it off a single feed. Have to talk to an electrician about that one.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Got a link or a part number for that amazon kit you found. I'm interested. Hard to mod the panel?

I can't find my exact one on Amazon anymore but here it is on EBay.

This is just the interlock. What I bought was the interlock, outdoor panel, and 50 amp breaker as a kit.

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=171706549426&globalID=EBAY-US

Chris

 

[Egon]

You could install a 12 volt battery run system like an RV. Hook up should be simple and give you house water till the tank runs dry. Charge batteries by solar or 110 generator.

 

[Soundguy]

I can't find my exact one on Amazon anymore but here it is on EBay.

This is just the interlock. What I bought was the interlock, outdoor panel, and 50 amp breaker as a kit.

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=171706549426&globalID=EBAY-US Chris

thanks, i have been thinking about an interlock system like that.

currently to use gen, i just have it on a carry all and drive tractor to the side of the house and run the heavy duty cable into the lania, and then in a window. end of the box terminates at a 4 prong male, however it is mated to a 4 prong female with a locking cable coupler setup ( matching ends are locked together.. think it is an rv plug setup ).. anyway, from there is a breakout box giving me 220v or 120v circuits . From there I just run an extension cable to the fridge etc.. we don't run alot of power during outages. just a line to the well and that breakout box for the house. the line to the well is just some 10-3 romex direct bury that i roll up and plug into the other 220v plug on the pto gen, and then toss over the fence to the well. I have a junction box wired up ad the well in a wet location box, and I can just plug in there to provide well power. Used that on the farm for months before i had power out there.

this lockout would make it much easier.

thanks

 

[handirifle]

Every Friday morning a bunch of men meet for breakfast at our church, and then we do "chores" till noon. Yesterday I asked one of them, who is a retired electrician, about this and he said, "let me come out and give you a list of what all you need". So most likely I will get a generator, probably a "dual fuel" one at Costco, 7KW I believe, and use it. I have an extra 120gal propane tank that would be perfect.

Thanks for humoring me on the water pump idea. I get a lot of ideas, not always good ones.

 

[Soundguy]

Don't feel bad, I like to build things, many times I have been walking isles to make parts price lists, and about half WA done, I will see the thing I was building, for sale, cheaper than I could buy half the parts.

 

[GLyford]

Don't feel bad, I like to build things, many times I have been walking isles to make parts price lists, and about half WA done, I will see the thing I was building, for sale, cheaper than I could buy half the parts.

At least you usually see the item before you get your solution built.

Typical example, I had an 85 ranger that I kept leaving the lights on. So I designed a circuit with a relay and a piezo buzzer that would let me know when the key was off and the lights were on, cost me maybe $10 in parts at radio shack.

A week later I see a gadget in walmart for $2 that did the same thing with just a buzzer and a diode...