Electricity Price Increases

   / Electricity Price Increases #541  
Farmer Bob sold out because he could not make a living by farming... because EVERYONE knows all food comes neatly wrapped in plastic from Walmart, Kroger or whatever super mart you live near, not some piece of farm land that would better serve to store selfie pics. ;)
Farmer Bob doesn't grow food around here. He grows ethanol.
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #542  
Indiana. Lots of surrounding communities aren't allowing data centers. The locals here never wanted it either and spoke up about it, but either the local officials are getting something out of it or they're being bulldozed over by the state. There's a huge lack of transparency. My wife stopped at the local paper to run an ad and while there asked a reporter how to get information on it and was told there's none to be had - the state and local governments are completely shutting out the public. Lots of farm land and houses lost to eminent domain. That's another thing that makes me angry - the government kicking people off their land to hand it to corporations.
Where's that project located?
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #543  
Farmer Bob doesn't grow food around here. He grows ethanol.
The corn used for ethanol typically also feeds livestock. It can be fed directly (it's just field corn) or the byproduct after extraction for ethanol. Most of the corn grown in the world is not for direct human consumption. Sweet corn is a small faction of total corn production (always has been).

So, even the guys "growing ethanol" are also growing food.

Personally, I think ethanol production is largely not worth the effort. They need to improve the engineering of engines that use it and/or the processes for 'refining' it.
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #544  
The corn used for ethanol typically also feeds livestock. It can be fed directly (it's just field corn) or the byproduct after extraction for ethanol. Most of the corn grown in the world is not for direct human consumption. Sweet corn is a small faction of total corn production (always has been).

So, even the guys "growing ethanol" are also growing food.

Personally, I think ethanol production is largely not worth the effort. They need to improve the engineering of engines that use it and/or the processes for 'refining' it.
We have an ethanol plant here. Most of the corn in this area goes to that.
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #546  
Personally, I think ethanol production is largely not worth the effort. They need to improve the engineering of engines that use it and/or the processes for 'refining' it.
Running ICE on ethanol is a great farce.
If you going to “waste” farmland for making energy sources for machinery like ethanol for cars, instead of using the farmland for food , you might as well just put in PV panels, instead of urea fertilized cornstalks.
Farm Acre for farm acre, PV panel installations produce around 100 x more usable energy than the resultant ethanol.
Power data centers, whatever…
I’m not the biggest fan of battery cars, but, when it comes to ethanol, yeah, it’s a bad deal for everyone except the ethanol lobbyists, and big farmers profiting from the government requirements of ethanol ( because of the ethanol lobbyists).
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #547  
The panels aren't a reasonable answer either. They make aome sense on house tops and in cities.

They are not worth the loss of farmland.

The problem is the incentives make it more valuable to ruin farmland than to farm it.
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #549  
The panels aren't a reasonable answer either. They make aome sense on house tops and in cities.

They are not worth the loss of farmland.

The problem is the incentives make it more valuable to ruin farmland than to farm it.
It doesn't ruin farmland. In fact, it lets the farmland rest, reduces chemical applications and runoff, reduced fertilizer applications and runoff, reduces erosion, reduces fuel consumption, the farmer maintains ownership of the land, certain can grow under it, pollinators and bees can be raised on it, sheep can be grazed under it, and a bond is put in place to remove it once the lease period is over, or the farmer can up the lease if they so choose.
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #550  
Plus there are higher mounting versions that allow cattle and crops like berries that benefit from some shading. We are looking at adding some extra solar, and plan to use a higher cattle and horse friendly version.

Having lived close to and been around combustion power plants, I would take solar or wind "plants" over being a neighbor to other types of power plants, but I understand the NIMBY view of the world. "Put the power plant somewhere else", but eventually it is in somebody's backyard.

All the best,

Peter
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #551  
Around here it is not in somebody else's backyard, it's in somebody else's corn, bean or potato field. They're trying to get electricity from 20,000 acres of solar panels on previously productive flatland farm land here. Of course there's probably snow on the panels now.
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #552  
Plus there are higher mounting versions that allow cattle and crops like berries that benefit from some shading. We are looking at adding some extra solar, and plan to use a higher cattle and horse friendly version.

Having lived close to and been around combustion power plants, I would take solar or wind "plants" over being a neighbor to other types of power plants, but I understand the NIMBY view of the world. "Put the power plant somewhere else", but eventually it is in somebody's backyard.

All the best,

Peter
I don't care for the wind farms due to the permanent alteration of the horizon. There's a large solar farm near here that no one notices unless you drive down the county road it's on. You can't see it at all when the corn is up. Much rather have that than wind.

But I'd much rather have nuclear over any of them.
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #553  
But I'd much rather have nuclear over any of them.
I live close to a nuke plant. Believe me, they not only alter the horizon, but also the local cloud cover.

Moreover, given the age of most still in operation today, it feels more and more innevitable that catastrophic failure may be on the horizon.
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #554  
I live close to a nuke plant. Believe me, they not only alter the horizon, but also the local cloud cover.

Moreover, given the age of most still in operation today, it feels more and more innevitable that catastrophic failure may be on the horizon.
Ours doesn't have a cooling tower, it has Lake Michigan.
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #555  
I live close to a nuke plant. Believe me, they not only alter the horizon, but also the local cloud cover.

Moreover, given the age of most still in operation today, it feels more and more innevitable that catastrophic failure may be on the horizon.

I think the point was for new nuclear plants, which are quite different from early ones.

Also, the footprint per KwH of nuclear power vs wind or solar is puny.

Around here, nothing is growing under the solar panels. There's not enough sunlight reaching the ground for enough plantlife to browse livestock in any meaningful way.
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #556  
I think the point was for new nuclear plants, which are quite different from early ones.
Got it. I'm in favor of new nuke plants, but I do wish they'd be looking to replace those already operating beyond their design life.

Ironically, the thing that will finally make nukes more financially feasible, is mostly BEV's coupled with renewables like solar and wind. Nukes have a relatively long time constant for throttling up and down, and so have never been able to handle daytime surge demand. Our classic solution is to operate them near overnight low base load, and then use coal or other fossil plants to handle the differential daytime peak demands.

Having 100 million BEV's plugged into the grid and charging overnight will allow us to turn up the nukes to a much higher production rate, to carry a larger fraction of daytime peak load. Solar and wind both peak during daytime peak hours, in most regions where power demand is high, and so also help reduce the reliance on fossils for daytime peak differential.

Taking it even a step farther: If some smart company like Tesla got into the power management business, the fractional power taken from nukes could climb even farther, using tens of millions of BEV's as a large managed capacitor bank. I imagine the business model for this would be cars on lease, or favorable financing terms or discounts for those subscribing their car to such a program.

I see nukes as having a very bright future, but am not convinced it will happen first in our country, given political and regulatory obstacles. Others are already building nuke plants much better than our own, which are really derived from naval designs, based on US-researched designs. But that's a whole other post in the making.
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #557  
I'm mostly a proponent of using what we have as we continue to develop more efficient, cleaner, safer options.

Imho, solar and wind are just not rational for large-scale production. They are better suited to remote 'off-grid' type situations, or for personal, small-scale use. Too many costs (hidden and absorbed by regs and taxes) and too much land tied up for too inconsistent production.

We have lots of coal and NG, we should continue to use that to handle fluctuations.

I think we need, at a minimum, enough nuclear power generation capacity to handle our current 'peak' usage. All other types are supplemental for growth and 'downtime'.

I think generation needs to happen all across the country, not just in rural areas. Reducing the distance from generation to use also saves energy lost during transmission.

Our grid needs to be split up into many small grids that are only interconnected as needed for an emergency. Think of it like a giant manual cartoon 'switch'. Imagine NY and NY on separate grids. NY has and emergency and needs more power, the switches get thrown to augment them with NJ (and PA, CT, etc) power. This protects the various grids from catastrophic failure. Right now, we effectively have 2 or 3 grids that could potentially drop half of the country into a blackout because it's always connected. Essentially, we need the benefits of both an interconnected grid and much smaller regional grids.

Within each grid there needs to be ample power generation from 'always-on' sources (nukes, coal, NG, etc) to power those grids at peak+ 30%.

We are much too far behind in dealing with our electricity production and transmission. Streamline the regs for plants and power lines. Until then, encouraging/subsidizing additional EVs is foolhardy.
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #558  
I'm mostly a proponent of using what we have as we continue to develop more efficient, cleaner, safer options.
Always best to get what you can from what you already have, but at some point new technology becomes so much cheaper and more efficient than the old, that construction costs become no issue.

Imho, solar and wind are just not rational for large-scale production. They are better suited to remote 'off-grid' type situations, or for personal, small-scale use.
I'm no expert on wind, but at least for solar, it's exactly the opposite. Personal-scale solar makes zero sense in most of this country, there's just not enough generation capability to justify the install costs vs. product lifespan and maintenance, but utility-scale solar actually works quite well. I'd expect the same to be true for wind, but have not personally looked at that.

We have lots of coal and NG, we should continue to use that to handle fluctuations.
We do... mostly NG.

I think we need, at a minimum, enough nuclear power generation capacity to handle our current 'peak' usage. All other types are supplemental for growth and 'downtime'.
How would that work? You do know you cannot have excess generation? Generation must be throttled to near load. Basic telegrapher's equation theory, all power must be dissipated somewhere.

There is currently no technical solution for increasing nuclear generation much past minimum overnight load, from existing approved nuclear technology. The most feasible solution, from existing approved nuclear plant types, is to increase base load closer to peak demand. Hence my comment about more BEV's plugged in and charging overnight.

I think generation needs to happen all across the country, not just in rural areas. Reducing the distance from generation to use also saves energy lost during transmission.
Yes, probaby some. But it might be more feasible and safer to build large nuke plants away from population centers and closer to cooling sources.

Our grid needs to be split up into many small grids that are only interconnected as needed for an emergency. Think of it like a giant manual cartoon 'switch'. Imagine NY and NY on separate grids. NY has and emergency and needs more power, the switches get thrown to augment them with NJ (and PA, CT, etc) power.
Not really feasible. Load is a sliding scale, managing the load distribution with a binary switch is never going to work.

When looking at transmission lines that are even a fraction of a wavelength long, you have to match the impedance of source and load, to minimize reflected power, which will destroy a generator and cause massive voltage and power surges due to standing waves. This isn't simple automotive or residential-scale wiring, but actually lands in the realm of telegraphy or RF engineering, due to long distances.

This protects the various grids from catastrophic failure.
Yes, but at the cost of absolutely crippling costs in redundancy for separate grids. There are better solutions, but we are hampered by our political system. I could write pages on this, my FIL spent his whole career in utility management, but sufficient to say that the grid management and troubleshooting systems used today are not much better than we had 50 years ago. But because these systems operate across several states, funding for change must come through congress, and they have a very short attention span.

There was a proposal in the works just prior to the great northeast blackout in 2003, to use Lockheed's theater warfare system to "game out" failure scenarios in real-time, to manage exactly the type of component failures that led to that massive backout. There was initially very little political motivation to make it happen, but then the blackout occurred, and the proposal actually made it to the floor. Unfortunately, because companies like Lockheed move very slowly, they failed to get their full budget and proposal completed before the next election, and interest in the proposal had already waned before its completion.

Within each grid there needs to be ample power generation from 'always-on' sources (nukes, coal, NG, etc) to power those grids at peak+ 30%.
lol... and people complain about their energy prices doubling, today! Are you ready to pay 10x more for your power?!?

We are much too far behind in dealing with our electricity production and transmission. Streamline the regs for plants and power lines.
Agreed on this, we could do better with more investment. But again... at what cost? When are you willing to trade dollars to get past "good enough"?

Until then, encouraging/subsidizing additional EVs is foolhardy.
EV's may be foolhardy, but not with regard to electrical generation. If sold into surburban households where most charging will occur in off-peak hours overnight, they'd be more part of the solution, than the problem.

One thing to remember about all of the above: Tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of very smart engineers were involved in the design and implementation of the existing system. No single person on an internet forum, particularly from outside the industry, is going to make any valid suggestion that's an actual improvement over the existing system. We didn't get here by accident, billions of dollars have gone into planning and implementing this "best compromise".
 
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   / Electricity Price Increases #559  
Just a couple of things to clarify on nuclear plants. They really aren't "beyond design life". The original licensing laws only allowed for a 40 year license. There isn't much that can't be fixed and most large plants have been extended to 60 years with plans for 80 years life.

Also, the limited capability of nuclear plants to ramp up and down in power is not inherent. Original Pressurized Water reactors were designed that way because it was simple and they were expected to always be base loaded at 100%. Boiling Water reactors generally have the capability to quickly ramp between 50% and 100%. Newer designs of both types can be designed to ramp between 10% and 100%.
 
   / Electricity Price Increases #560  
Also, the limited capability of nuclear plants to ramp up and down in power is not inherent. Original Pressurized Water reactors were designed that way because it was simple and they were expected to always be base loaded at 100%. Boiling Water reactors generally have the capability to quickly ramp between 50% and 100%. Newer designs of both types can be designed to ramp between 10% and 100%.
Yes, I guess I should have been more clear. I typed "existing design types" or "approved design types", because that's where we mostly are today, not because it's an inherent limit in nuclear plant design.

One problem is that at the time the nuclear regulatory committee was founded to approve new designs, the primary funding available for new designs was coming from the Navy, and aimed and ship-borne reactors. And so the only types of reactors that received approval were really optimized for nuclear subs and surface vessels.

Then come along the utility companies, and it was cheaper for them to just use the types of designs that had already been approved, than to individually fund the approval process of reactor types that might be safer or otherwise more optimal for stationary land-based plants. So, we have what we have, which are essentially massively-overscaled Naval reactors.

Some of the best designs for stationary land-based usage were conceived and tested in the USA, only to find exclusive use in other countries, thanks to our regulatory system and lack of Federal funding to pursue approval for new design types.
 

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