Electricity Price Increases

[MossRoad]

If it's like the city we lived in near FtW, they will let it sit for a month or two and bring it back up when fewer people are there. Rinse and repeat until they get their way.

It'll come back in 6 months. It's a $13B project on top of $15B already up and running a mile away.

 

[Torvy]

I think the corporations building the data centers should be responsible for their own power production. They have the money to do it but would rather buy cheap, rural land buy power plants and expect us to subsidize them.

The only property tax that makes sense...I'd put a huge tax on private facilities that are build on arable farmland. The better the land, the higher the tax. Sometimes I think we should borrow an idea from ******. Everyone should spend a year or more on a farm, working the land. Kind of a cross between CCC camps and a kibbutz.

 

[Torvy]

It'll come back in 6 months. It's a $13B project on top of $15B already up and running a mile away.

Indiana has a 6-month rule?

If I were writing the rules, anything requiring approval would need to pass at least twice, with an election in-between. (Some states have this for amendments). If a variance/project is rejected, the threshold to pass the next attempt should be a 2/3, then 3/4, then unanimous.

We had a project go up right between a creek and our back fence in a tiny green space. They needed 10 zoning variances to put in their plan. Speculative developer. Neighbors all came out and shut it down. A year later it was all approved and under construction. When we left, they only had about 25% occupied.

 

[MossRoad]

That's a little better. It should be at least 3 years before they can try again.

If they wait that long, it'll go elsewhere. That's all there is to it....

Data centers are a fact of U.S. life. They'll go up somewhere and that's a fact. Wherever they go up, they generate tax dollars for the local government. That's a fact.

Our state enacted large property and state income tax reforms, so that cut off funding to local county and city governments. The only way for those local governments to generate enough money to provide basic services like fire, police, streets, sanitation is to raise local income taxes.

Large projects like this come with agreements for paying taxes to support local governments, agreements to not drain the water supply by using closed loop system and employing mostly air cooling, and agreements to not raise local electricity prices.

They create a TON of temporary construction jobs, then those jobs go away. They create SOME permanent jobs after construction is over.

At the meeting, the majority of people speaking for it are construction/electrical/plumbing unions and local government leaders. The majority of people speaking against it are people that live there. They elected the local officials, and were all for the first data center and battery plant and power plant and steel mill and solar farm, etc............. until they started building them and realized just how HUGE these places are. Now they're regretting their choices.

There's a large ridge running between the small town and these sites, so I guess they figured out of sight, out of mind. They forgot about the tax ramifications that came from the people they elected, and now the only way to generate taxes is large projects like this.

They are getting what they voted for and are now regretting it.

 

[Torvy]

Funny thing is, who all gets input.

Where I grew up after dad retired, they built a nice, new coal plant.

The community has always been fine with it. A few years back, they wanted to upgrade and expand it. Community was behind that, too. Then a neighboring state got a judge to shutter the improvements.

Lots of people would say, sure, but the pollution may drift into their state, or whatever.

The same is true with these huge power-sucking centers, but since the generation of the power happens elsewhere, out-of-sight, out-of-mind.

It all comes back to a short-sighted view (on 'both' sides) about how and where we generate and transmit power in the US. We need about 3X the amount of sustainable (not wind or solar) power generation than we have in order to meet future needs. Until that happens, non of thia other stuff should see the light of day.

 

[WinterDeere]

I think the corporations building the data centers should be responsible for their own power production. They have the money to do it but would rather buy cheap, rural land buy power plants and expect us to subsidize them.

That certainly feels right, until you consider that you're using a site hosted on and backed up to one of these data centers, to make this complaint.

Ever use Google to search for anything? Ever buy anything from Amazon? Ever back up your photos to any cloud service, such as Google Drive, Amazon Photos, iCloud, or OneDrive? Then you're part of the problem, or at least using the very thing we're all complaining about.

 

[MossRoad]

Funny thing is, who all gets input.

Where I grew up after dad retired, they built a nice, new coal plant.

The community has always been fine with it. A few years back, they wanted to upgrade and expand it. Community was behind that, too. Then a neighboring state got a judge to shutter the improvements.

Lots of people would say, sure, but the pollution may drift into their state, or whatever.

The same is true with these huge power-sucking centers, but since the generation of the power happens elsewhere, out-of-sight, out-of-mind.

It all comes back to a short-sighted view (on 'both' sides) about how and where we generate and transmit power in the US. We need about 3X the amount of sustainable (not wind or solar) power generation than we have in order to meet future needs. Until that happens, non of thia other stuff should see the light of day.

There's a nice, new, large gas power plant right next door to this project. There's another one in the town just to our north. We're on one of the largest aquifers in the country and the crossroads of America as far as roads, rails, and power grids go. It's only logical to locate things here, as we're within a day's drive of something like 80% of the U.S. population. So, data centers, massive warehousing, trucking, etc... are all good candidates for this location.

So, in the end, blame farmer Bob for selling his land to these things and moving out.

 

[gsganzer]

There's a huge demand for power. Every gas turbine manufacturer is sold out until 2037. Many of the projects I'm working on are starting out as simple cycle so they can get more power generation immediately, but they'll eventually be converted to combined cycle at a later date.

Pretty funny to see a gas turbine and then a long pipe with the exhaust stack 70' away. They'll slide the heat recovery section in later.

 

[John0829]

So, in the end, blame farmer Bob for selling his land to these things and moving out.

Farmer Bob sold out because he could not make a living by farming... because EVERYONE knows all food comes neatly wrapped in plastic from Walmart, Kroger or whatever super mart you live near, not some piece of farm land that would better serve to store selfie pics.

 

[caver]

The coop I retired from had a new coal unit on the drawing board many years ago and I believe land purchased. The project was scrapped. It was easier to put in gas peaking units.

 

[EscapedSuburbia]

I'm not a NIMBY. I've got no complaint about industry building on appropriately zoned land if they bring jobs, tax revenue, and don't raise my electricity rates. But in our case we've got a data center being built a few miles from my house. It took over 1000 acres of farm land out of production, they're running water pipes through over 100 family's yards and taking out several hundred mature trees, us tax payers are funding the rerouting of a major state highway, they're getting big tax breaks, and they're going to use so much electricity our rates will have to go up. They're predicting the data center will create 50 jobs. All that for 50 jobs.

I want to see the US win the AI arms race. But the companies that are benefiting need to pay for it. It needs to be appropriately taxed and they need to pay for all the infrastructure and electricity rate increases. And they need to do it near an easy source of cooling water - not tear up 100 family yards to pipe it in. The way it's being done the taxpayers are funding it and homeowners are paying for the utility increases. All to create 50 jobs and put billions in Mark Zuckerberg's pockets.

 

[rontaki]

I'm not a NIMBY. I've got no complaint about industry building on appropriately zoned land if they bring jobs, tax revenue, and don't raise my electricity rates. But in our case we've got a data center being built a few miles from my house. It took over 1000 acres of farm land out of production, they're running water pipes through over 100 family's yards and taking out several hundred mature trees, us tax payers are funding the rerouting of a major state highway, they're getting big tax breaks, and they're going to use so much electricity our rates will have to go up. They're predicting the data center will create 50 jobs. All that for 50 jobs.

I want to see the US win the AI arms race. But the companies that are benefiting need to pay for it. It needs to be appropriately taxed and they need to pay for all the infrastructure and electricity rate increases. And they need to do it near an easy source of cooling water - not tear up 100 family yards to pipe it in. The way it's being done the taxpayers are funding it and homeowners are paying for the utility increases. All to create 50 jobs and put billions in Mark Zuckerberg's pockets.

Your Location?

 

[EscapedSuburbia]

Your Location?

Indiana. Lots of surrounding communities aren't allowing data centers. The locals here never wanted it either and spoke up about it, but either the local officials are getting something out of it or they're being bulldozed over by the state. There's a huge lack of transparency. My wife stopped at the local paper to run an ad and while there asked a reporter how to get information on it and was told there's none to be had - the state and local governments are completely shutting out the public. Lots of farm land and houses lost to eminent domain. That's another thing that makes me angry - the government kicking people off their land to hand it to corporations.

 

[WinterDeere]

Lots of surrounding communities aren't allowing data centers.

I expect we are going to see more and more of this, and I have to wonder how the internet giants are going to respond, when the sites they require to provide desired services are just not allowed.

"No Netflix for you!!!"



If I were a Bezos or Sarandos, I'd probably just start by denying service to anyone living within an exclusion zone. That'd probably have a way of swinging votes, awfully quick.

 

[Jstpssng]

Funny thing is, who all gets input.

Where I grew up after dad retired, they built a nice, new coal plant.

The community has always been fine with it. A few years back, they wanted to upgrade and expand it. Community was behind that, too. Then a neighboring state got a judge to shutter the improvements.

Lots of people would say, sure, but the pollution may drift into their state, or whatever.

The same is true with these huge power-sucking centers, but since the generation of the power happens elsewhere, out-of-sight, out-of-mind.

It all comes back to a short-sighted view (on 'both' sides) about how and where we generate and transmit power in the US. We need about 3X the amount of sustainable (not wind or solar) power generation than we have in order to meet future needs. Until that happens, non of thia other stuff should see the light of day.

Here in Maine there is a big push to get rid of all of the dams so that the rivers can run free. Meanwhile there is a massive powerline project to bring "green" energy from Quebec Hydro to Massachusetts.
Question; why is hydro "Green" from Canada but evil from Maine?

 

[Eagle1]

Just like coal is good in China but verboten here. We do not care if it is not near us. Data Center in South Dakota good, but not in other places. Wind farms are great as long as you can not see/hear them from your house/yard. Farms are only good if they are far away from the burbs, and so one.... We want as long as others suffer.
Anyone really think manufacturing is really a lot cleaner and that we did not ship the dirt to other countries?

 

[EscapedSuburbia]

I expect we are going to see more and more of this, and I have to wonder how the internet giants are going to respond, when the sites they require to provide desired services are just not allowed.

"No Netflix for you!!!"

View attachment 4562421

If I were a Bezos or Sarandos, I'd probably just start by denying service to anyone living within an exclusion zone. That'd probably have a way of swinging votes, awfully quick.

It wouldn't swing my vote. I can live without the cesspool that is Facebook and I can go to Walmart for the same Chinese crap that comes from Amazon. But like I said, I want the US to win the AI arms race. But do it in a smart way. If they need to be cooled to the tune of 5 million gallons a day then build them somewhere cold with a lot of water. Like on one of the Great Lakes or upper Wisconsin/Minnesota. Don't put them somewhere that water needs to be piped in from an artificial reservoir 50 miles away that also provides drinking water for a large metropolitan area. And Bezos can pay fair market value for the land and all the infrastructure improvements - he's not going to be eating cat food any time soon.

 

[WinterDeere]

It wouldn't swing my vote. I can live without the cesspool that is Facebook and I can go to Walmart for the same Chinese crap that comes from Amazon. But like I said, I want the US to win the AI arms race. But do it in a smart way. If they need to be cooled to the tune of 5 million gallons a day then build them somewhere cold with a lot of water. Like on one of the Great Lakes or upper Wisconsin/Minnesota. Don't put them somewhere that water needs to be piped in from an artificial reservoir 50 miles away that also provides drinking water for a large metropolitan area. And Bezos can pay fair market value for the land and all the infrastructure improvements - he's not going to be eating cat food any time soon.

Agreed. This site is as close as I come to social media, but I do consume an awful lot of Amazon and Netflix! I also rely on internet connectivity for my business, and AI for helping with my daily work.

 

[Jstpssng]

Just like coal is good in China but verboten here.

I can understand this. How can we be green, if we can't import cheap electric cars?

 

[bigtiller]

It wouldn't swing my vote. I can live without the cesspool that is Facebook and I can go to Walmart for the same Chinese crap that comes from Amazon. But like I said, I want the US to win the AI arms race. But do it in a smart way. If they need to be cooled to the tune of 5 million gallons a day then build them somewhere cold with a lot of water. Like on one of the Great Lakes or upper Wisconsin/Minnesota. Don't put them somewhere that water needs to be piped in from an artificial reservoir 50 miles away that also provides drinking water for a large metropolitan area. And Bezos can pay fair market value for the land and all the infrastructure improvements - he's not going to be eating cat food any time soon.

AND they should pay their fair share of taxes.
Every state, county, and local governments will bid for the chance to give them a sweetheart deal to lower their taxes with incentives to build in their location.