Electrical Starting Issue

[ToolDad]

BX2200, S/N 50024, MY 2000

Looking at the wiring schematic, I see a timer relay, D722, and associated solenoid, D722, with a single wire feed. I do not seem to have either though I do have an empty 4-contact connector on the wiring harness in battery area next to firewall. Does anyone know what this does, and should I have such? (further research identifies as "engine stop solenoid D722" (different how than the engine stop solenoid D905?)

Story behind the ask:
Long, long story short I have a reoccurring problem with hot starts where the starter solenoid does not engage (no clicking or anything). Have researched, diagnosed, and replaced every part of the starter system as well as the voltage regulator, stop solenoid, and some wiring harness connectors. Seems every time I replace something the problem disappears for 2-10 hot starts, then bam, it's back, so still having issues. When this starting problem occurs I can crank if I connect a 50 amp charger, as if there is increased resistance somewhere in the system that can be overcome by applying more amperage.

Am in process of jumping out sections of the harness, with next step being replace the harness. Needless to say this has been very frustrating and very costly. Would appreciate any assistance please.

 

[Rebeldad1]

"Story behind the ask:
Long, long story short I have a reoccurring problem with hot starts where the starter solenoid does not engage (no clicking or anything). Have researched, diagnosed, and replaced every part of the starter system as well as the voltage regulator, stop solenoid, and some wiring harness connectors"

when it doesnt start... what were the voltage readings when you tested it.... key on and in start position?

 

[Industrial Toys]

Just thinking out loud. For I have had mysterious starting issues on various equipment too. Ever take a booster cable and go from the negative lead of the battery to the starter casing? Maybe when things heat up. a ground is lost. It's often overlooked, as people do everything on the positive side.

A 12 volt system is terrible for bad connections. No room (or voltage) to overcome resistance.

 

[Roadworthy]

Remove the battery and have it load tested even if it's "known good". Clean battery terminals and connectors thoroughly. Follow ground lead to frame and clean that connection as well.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I for one, like to find the problem first, and not destroy good OEM connections, only to make my half rate connections by comparison. I believe that many equipment electrical issues are exasturbated (sp?) by the troubleshooter. Like, there WAS no issue with the battery connections, but there is now. As well as the original problem.

 

[groundcover]

Had a similar problem years ago with a VW Jetta. Ended up being a crack in the starter that would bother when hot but was fine when cold. Took a while to puzzle that out !

 

[Dave M7040]

Many owners have found the problem is too much start solenoid circuit resistance caused by tired safety switches.

John Deere even markets a relay kit for this problem.

To determine if this fix is for your tractor, disconnect the starter solenoid trigger wire at the solenoid.

Use a 12 volt simple test light and see if there is a voltage present when the key is turned to START.

If there is voltage appearing in the start position, then the relay kit is for you.

The amount of current in the safety circuit needed to trigger a relay is a fraction of what the starter solenoid needs.

This link has instructions.

http://www.mytractorforum.com/234-a...18-starter-assist-relay-assembly-install.html

Dave M7040

 

[ToolDad]

voltage at the start solenoid when not working, and when working anywhere from 10.8-11.4V

 

[ToolDad]

Besides cleaning the connections, I have also replaced the battery cables and the grounding strap (frame to engine). When it does not start, I can jump direct from the battery hot at starter to the starter solenoid and it fires right up.

 

[ToolDad]

Had old battery tested as good, replaced anyway along with cables and grounding strap. Still an issue.

 

[ToolDad]

I for one, like to find the problem first, and not destroy good OEM connections, only to make my half rate connections by comparison. I believe that many equipment electrical issues are exasturbated (sp?) by the troubleshooter. Like, there WAS no issue with the battery connections, but there is now. As well as the original problem.

Yes, I have wondered the same thing. No electrical wiring "improvements" made until exhausting any troubleshooting I could do up until that point, but still wondering.

 

[ToolDad]

Many owners have found the problem is too much start solenoid circuit resistance caused by tired safety switches.

John Deere even markets a relay kit for this problem.

To determine if this fix is for your tractor, disconnect the starter solenoid trigger wire at the solenoid.

Use a 12 volt simple test light and see if there is a voltage present when the key is turned to START.

If there is voltage appearing in the start position, then the relay kit is for you.

The amount of current in the safety circuit needed to trigger a relay is a fraction of what the starter solenoid needs.

This link has instructions.

http://www.mytractorforum.com/234-a...18-starter-assist-relay-assembly-install.html

Dave M7040

I have seen this before in my research though I did not totally understand how it helped. Your explanation helps. Definitely a resistance issue IMO. Have 10.8-11.4V at solenoid. Safety switches could be a problem, but know that I have replaced them more than once (2-3) and still having issue.

Just found a possible another source issue that I am investigating wire connector at stop solenoid). Disconnected and saw potentially corroded ground connector. Reconnected harness to solenoid wires and the tractor magically started ok again. Need extended trial time to verify.

If that doesn't do it, then I will give the relay a try. You would think that if this was a true wiring system design problem, the relay solution would be more widely known, especially amongst dealers. Have discussed my issue (not the relay) with three different service centers multiple times to no avail. Thx.

 

[ToolDad]

Remove the battery and have it load tested even if it's "known good". Clean battery terminals and connectors thoroughly. Follow ground lead to frame and clean that connection as well.

Had old battery tested as good, replaced anyway along with cables and grounding strap. Still an issue.

 

[ToolDad]

when it doesnt start... what were the voltage readings when you tested it.... key on and in start position?[/QUOTE]

voltage at the start solenoid when not working, and when working anywhere from 10.8-11.4V

 

[ToolDad]

Just thinking out loud. For I have had mysterious starting issues on various equipment too. Ever take a booster cable and go from the negative lead of the battery to the starter casing? Maybe when things heat up. a ground is lost. It's often overlooked, as people do everything on the positive side.

A 12 volt system is terrible for bad connections. No room (or voltage) to overcome resistance.

Besides cleaning the connections, I have also replaced the battery cables and the grounding strap (frame to engine). When it does not start, I can jump direct from the battery hot at starter to the starter solenoid and it fires right up.

 

[Dave M7040]

You would think that if this was a true wiring system design problem, the relay solution would be more widely known, especially amongst dealers. Have discussed my issue (not the relay) with three different service centers multiple times to no avail. Thx.

Newer tractors and more expensive tractors have the starter relay built in from the factory.

Talk to a John Deere dealer. They are well versed and sell a John Deere kit for just this problem.


Dave M7040

 

[Tx Jim]

JD offered a starter relay kit to fit tractors built as far back as mid 1960's that came from factory with no starter relay to help ease non starting problems.

 

[ToolDad]

Have the materials so planning to add the solenoid in the next day or two, Will update later. Thanks for your input.

 

[ToolDad]

UPDATE - Installed starter relay circuit, mounted on firewall beside the flasher relay unit. So far 5 hot starts and counting. Fingers crossed.

 

[SamR]

Hi ToolDad
I too have a 2000 BX2200 that I bought new and that has been virtually trouble free for many years. For some time now it will do a click click rather than turn the engine over and I had looked into the JD Relay kit years ago.

As it turned out I had stumbled across the "recipe" here on TBN to get a generic relay and socket etc and crimp some terminals to make the same/similar fix that JD sells. Thinking it may be best to actually do the work now while the temps are good I took the cowling off and did the obligatory cleaning. I connected the relay kit and although the tractor turned over strong it did not start.

Since you already took care of this successfully I wondered if you'd clear up the connections for me?

On the notes I have, connections are to be made as follows
#30 blue- battery side post of solenoid
#85 black- to frame ground
#86 white- to key side connector on white wire
#87 yellow- to other side of white wire originally connected in line to starter

Maybe the gray/black wire with the white tracer was my key switch and I grabbed the wrong one but the white one was easier to connect to- I have had the page for years and don't recall the details.
Thanks