Electric selector valve

[davesisk]

Correction

Hi folks:

Just wanted to post a correction on the cylinder fitting sizes here. Someone at PT had told me that all the 1/4" hoses on my machine had 1/4" NPT fittings. That appears to be incorrect. I just took an old hose over to the local Northern Tool to see if I could estimate what fittings I'll need to plumb in this selector valve (plus a cheaper source of replacement hoses), and I discovered that at least the hose I brought in has 1/4" JIC fittings, not 1/4" NPT fittings. The JIC fittings are smaller (actually, the 1/4" fitting measures 3/16" diameter...go figure). Anyway, I don't know if it's different on the newer 400's, but it looks like this the case with my old one.

Dave

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

Re: Correction

Dave: My better judgment tells me to wait until someone who knows something about hydraulic plumbing chimes in, but when have I ever paid attention to my "better judgment." /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

My vague recollection is that JIC identifies a type of 37 degree flare fitting for the end of a tube. A JIC fitting then can have 1/4" tapered NPT threads on the other end, to go into the ports in the pump, motor, cylinder, etc., (so you may have 1/4" NPT JIC fittings?) The alternative to NPT is some kind of o-ringed (non-tapered) connection (SAE, DIN?)

OK - someone who knows please chime in.

 

[davesisk]

Re: Correction

Hey Charlie:

From comparing fittings in Northern today, here's what I have deduced (and someone correct me if I've got this wrong!):

1) JIC and SAE (also called MSTOR in Northern's catalog) are the same size and thread, but JIC 37 has the highly tapered front end, while SAE has a flat front end and a rubber O-ring near the nut. One will actually fit the other thread-wise and size-wise, but they won't seal properly (I'd assume).
2) The same size NPT (also called NPSM in Northern's catalog if it's female) is actually a bigger diameter than either JIC or SAE thread, and NPT is slightly tapered so that it seals better as you tighten it, as I understand it.

So, in other words 1/4" JIC37 and 1/4" SAE (also called SAE 6, I *think*) are the same diameter and thread size, but a different shape (plus an O-ring with SAE), but a 1/4" NPT fitting is larger in diameter and a slightly tapered thread.

I *think* this fits my observations today...I agree though, let's see if a fitting expert emerges!

Dave

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

Re: Correction

Dave: That's my understanding, as well. I think that the SAE, DIN and NPT connections, however, are used to connect a fitting to a port, where the JIC and 45 degree flares are to connect a hose end or tube to the fitting. May be that both go for both ends, but I haven't seen them (yet). I understand there are a bunch of other fitting types and sizes, as well, just to keep us confused. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[davesisk]

Re: Correction

Charlie:

That seems to make sense.

I guess the "nice" thing about standards is that there's so many to choose from, eh? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Dave

 

[davesisk]

Sorry to revive this thread, but I think I finally have all the parts I need to hook this sucker up and test it. I've got the selector valve, the fittings for it, a 2x8 cylinder and fittings for it, the necessary quick-connects to be able to hook up and unhook the cylinder, bulk hose and the reuseable fittings to custom-make the hoses to the exact lengths I need, plus a good size electric SPDT switch and a piece of curved PVC pipe with flare at the end (I jammed a 1/2" nut into the flared end, and the plastic switch screws in almost perfect even though it's threads are different), 2 U-bolts to attach this switch contraption to the joystick, and the wiring to hook it all up. Also, I've cut, welded, drilled, and painted red a very simple L-shaped mount out of 1/4" flat stock, and bolted it to the top front of the tractor's "dash" (there simply wasn't enough clearance to attach it to the front, and I didn't want to weld or drill around the steering column because of the steering valve and hoses just underneath). And finally, I've painted the selector valve itself black, as the actual valve part is made of cast steel and it'll rust like crazy on the outside (although this shouldn't, in theory, effect it's operation since the inside is lubricated and protected by the hydraulic oil).

Whew! The hardest parts of this project so far were 1) getting all the right fittings, and 2) figuring out exactly where and how to mount the selector valve.

I plan to finish this part over this weekend. With any luck, by early Saturday afternoon, I'll be able to curl/uncurl the bucket by moving the joystick left/right, and open/close the extra cylinder (which will eventually actuate a grapple jaw) by pushing the button and moving the joystick left/right.

Charlie, thanks again for all your suggestions on this!

Next step will be to actually fabricate the grapple jaw and attach it to the existing bucket, assuming the hydraulics part of this project works as spotlessly as I'm hoping. Wish me luck here! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Dave

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

<font color="red"> Wish me luck here!
</font>

Done

 

[MossRoad]

Sounds good. We'll be watching.

 

[davesisk]

OK, first minor setup. I decided to make up the necessary hoses when I got home Friday late afternoon. I just discovered that the bulk hose I have must not be the exact size intended for the reuseable fittings that I have. Hard as I could try, I couldn't get the sheath part of the fitting screwed on top of the hose...the hose diameter is just too big. I'll hit Carquest early tommorrow morning to see if they have the right size bulk hose that'll work with these fittings. I guess the back pocket solution here is to get Carquest to make up 6 hoses with permanent fittings (which completely defeats what I was trying to accomplish with the reuseable fittings). However, I'm determined to get this hooked up and tested this weekend, so if that's what it takes...then that's what it takes... /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Dave

 

[davesisk]

Re: Electric selector valve - Done!

Whew who! The selector valve is installed and operating properly. I didn't encounter a single problem (ignoring my hose issue from an earlier post) getting everything hooked up and working. I ended up placing the button just below the knob on the joystick (at 6 o'clock), so you actually push it with kind of the heel of your thumb, but that seems to work really well, as you can still get a good grip on the joystick without pushing the button accidentally. I've discovered that I have a tendency to let go of the button before returning the joystick completely to neutral detent, so I see this is going to take a little getting used to.

Carquest didn't have the correct hose for the reuseable fittings that I bought, so I just had them make up 6 hoses (and make them a little longer than I thought I would need, since you can loop a hose that's too long but can't stretch a hose that's too short... /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif). $140 and 2.5 hours later (yes, there's a reason I wanted to make the hoses myself! Carquest is expensive AND slow!), I had 6 professionally done hoses in my hot little hand. It took about two hours to hook all the hoses up, run the wiring and switch, etc. This was very well worth the effort.

Can't wait to build the grapple jaw now!

If anyone wants pics, let me know and I'll try to post some early tommorrow...

Dave

 

[pajoube]

Re: Electric selector valve - Done!

YES, we want pictures.
PJ

 

[davesisk]

Here's some pics...front view of the selector valve. The two hoses on the front are the diverted ports. These hoses curl up and are hooked together with quick-connects (just in case I hit the button accidentally or something causes a short at some point in time). I've got hoses and quick-connects on the 2x8 cylinder that will operate the grapple jaw, so it's just a matter of plugging it in.

 

[davesisk]

Here's slightly closer view....as you can see, the hoses I used to hook all this up are a bit too long...but like I said before, you can curl a hose that's too long, but you can't stretch one that's too short, so I decided to err on the side of too long to avoid another 3 hour trip back to Carquest... /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[davesisk]

Here's a closeup of the selector valve itself. You can see that there are 6 hoses and 2 wires going to this contraption. The two hoses on the bottom come from the ports on the joystick valve that went to the curl cylinder. The hoses on top now go to the curl cylinder. This is the default path through the circuit when the button is not pressed...pushing the joystick to the left curls the bucket (or whatever attachment), and pushing it to the right uncurls the bucket. The two hoses on the front are the ones that curl up and have the quick-connects. These two are connected to the ports that flow is diverted to when the button on the joystick is pressed and the joystick is moved left or right. I've connected the hoses and quick-connects such that when you press the button and push the joystick left, the cylinder extends (which would close the grapple jaw), and when you press the button and push the joystick right, the cylinder retracts (which would open the grapple jaw). (I wonder if this setup makes sense for a hoe arm? If not, I could always switch it at the hoses on the hoe arm...yes, that's another addition I plan to build since I've already got an 8" bucket /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif)

Although I ended up with 6 straight fittings and 6 elbow fittings, what seems to have turned out best is 2 straight fittings on the bottom, and elbows on the front and top.

You can see where the two wires connect to the front of the valve (where the round part starts, just a little left of center). The farthest left wire connects to the button mounted to the joystick, and the right wire goes to ground, which is the bolt on the top right that bolts the selector valve onto the mounting plate that I made.

 

[davesisk]

Here's the joystick button...I wedged two 1/2" nuts into the flared end, and screwed the plastic pushbutton into the nut (threads don't match, but it still works). The button is double-pole single-throw, so it takes two wires. One comes from the white wire going to the ignition switch (this has a voltage when the ignition switch is on) and the other goes to the pole on the selector valve. With the ignition on but the engine not cranked, you can hear the valve click when you press the button.

I positioned the button so you press it with the heel of your thumb. The piece of PVC pipe wanted to gravite to that position since it's curved, and when I thought about it, it seemed to make sense anyway, since you can get a good grip on the round knob to push it right without accidentally pushing the button.

I see that I'll need a little practice to not let go of the button before returning the joystick to center detent. If I don't get good enough at it, I might actually consider replacing the pushbutton with a toggle switch that's within reach of my thumb...we'll see.

 

[davesisk]

Finally, here's a shot where you can see the L-shaped plate that I made to mount the valve to the tractor. I welded two pieces of 1/4" x 2" wide flat stock into an "L", drilled 4 holes, then painted it red (doesn't quite match the tractor, but the purpose was to minimize rust. I also painted the selector valve itself black to minimize rust.) The plate mounts just left of the steering column with two 5/16" bolts, and the selector valve mounts onto the plate with two 5/16" bolts that go through the side. The valve has 6 holes: two 1/4" holes on the front that go all the way through, and four 5/16" holes on the top that go all the way through. I had to mount the valve just a little above and forward of the "dash" to have sufficient clearances (from the lift arms, and lift and curl cylinders) to be able to attach the hoses. It's still a somewhat tight fit, but at least I can get a wrench on it... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Enjoy!
Dave

 

[MossRoad]

Re: Electric selector valve - Done!

<font color="blue"> YES, we want pictures. </font>

Now, Paul, I don't really like to pick on people in public, but what was Dave thinking when he asked if we would like to see pictures? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[MossRoad]

Very nice pictures, Dave. Looks good. So all you have to do is pop those quick connects and stick on an attachment? Pretty cool. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

So, a grapple, power angle snow plow, etc... would work very well. Nice job.

Now you have to compose a parts list so we can all duplicate your hard research and give you credit. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

So on the smaller units can we call it the sisk-switch, the larger units the charlie-valve, and everything else non-PT the chalkley-mod? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[pajoube]

You are guick, the pictures and explination are great.
I agree with MossRoad, this should have your name on it.
PJ

 

[davesisk]

He he...yeah, what was I thinking, asking a silly question like that? /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif I must've been tired out of my mind! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Yes, now I have the equivalent of what the newer machines have in an auxillary PTO, but it's operated by the button and joystick rather than a seperate lever.

Concerning a parts list, the only part that was in any way "specialized" was the selector valve itself. It's a Gresen solenoid-operated selector valve (although I notice it has "Parker" stamped into it...go figure), rated for up to 8 gpm at up to 3000 PSI. The best price was at http://www.surpluscenter.com , $139.50, part# 9-1782. A local hydraulic supply place would have loved to order it for me, but the price was $350 or so.

The fittings that go into the selector valve were male SAE 6 (3/8" o-ring type, the valve side) to 1/4" male JIC-37 (size 4, the hose side). Of course, I don't know for sure if the newer 400 series use hoses with 1/4" female JIC swivel fittings, but they probably do. I wouldn't even try to make a guess on the 1400 or 2400 series, might be bigger. The pushbutton was a simple SPDT button rated for 10 amps from Radio Shack. The piece of PVC and u-bolts came from Lowes/Home Depot. The wiring I just happened to have lying around. The hoses obviously were made up at Carquest... /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif I had to get fittings for the cylinder as well, plus I made all this more complicated by trying to roll-in my plan of custom-making my own hoses at the same time. Again, I'd be reluctant to suggest all the hose and fittings sizes because those might very well be different between old/new/small/large/non-PT machines. Unfortunately, that was really the part that took the most time. Take Charlie's advice and just go to a hydraulic's supply house with the selector valve and one hose off your machine! Do what I did (order just about all of it mail-order) only if you're very experienced with hydraulic fittings and can figure out sizes and types by eye-balling them! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif If you don't try to get too complicated (like I apparently did with the hose deal), then the install is really simple.

So really, everthing except the selector valve itself is pretty much commodity stuff. Well, maybe not quite "commodity"...I guess you can't buy hydraulic hoses at the grocery store just yet, but if enough people keep buying PT's and other CUT's... /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

The Sisk-o-Switch? Now, that's got a ring to it...(or is that a click instead? /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif) One of my nicknames early in life was "Sisko"...perhaps it was simply my destiny to complete this selector valve install this weekend. Then again, maybe I was just determined to finally get it done.../forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Dave