Electric fence advice

[beowulf]

I need to put up about 700 feet of rather straight run temporary electric fence to fence cattle into an area where they won't be up to mischief at the location where daughter is building a home on our property. I know the basics of installing an electric fence and understand that the grounding aspect is perhaps the most important aspect to get right. Our ground is hard and rocky and very dry. It is recommended to install three 6' grounding rods 10' apart to achieve effective grounding. Not sure I can do that - but will try to put in three (galvanized steel) rods as deep as I can with the help of an auger bit and battery powered drills and water and sledge - I doubt I can get in more than 2-3 feet - will try to choose the best location for that. I have also read that if you have sub-optimal grounding conditions, you can use an "alternate wire system" - basically installing alternate hot and ground wires close enough together that the cattle will make contact with both wires at the same time and feel the shock. I suppose that is the system I will try - along with getting as much separate grounding with rods as I can.

So, any experience with the alternate wiring system? How well does it work? What do I need to know? Still needs separate grounding I assume.

Any suggestions to achieve optimal grounding in my hard dirt - dry and rocky area? I will try to keep the grounding rod area wet with some barrels of water and a drip system.

I thought about grounding it to the wellhead, but research said not to do that. I also thought I could additionally ground it to a stretch of barbed wire fence (at each end of the electric fence run) as that would make contact with the ground via a hundred of so T-posts, but I can't find much about that as an option.

Finally, I scored a whole lot of electric fence material when a fence guy was going out of business - almost free. Poly wire, 14 and 17 gauge galvanized wire, insulating connectors and much more. Just not the posts. So, a final question: poly wire vs galvanized wire? I have plenty of both.

Any help will be much appreciated.

 

[fishheadbob]

I realize it van be very dry in your locale but you may be overbuilding your system. Electric fence is pretty simple in concept and in practice. I would start with banging one rod as deep as you can get it; a spud bar should be helpful, but one deep rod should be sufficient. Pick up some water softener salt if your fence isn't giving a whopper shock and heavily "seed" the area around the rod, the salt may catch some moisture and keep your soil a tad moister. Yes the rod will corrode in a few years, but you did say temporary. If no luck add a rod or two, but I feel whoever made the 3 rod recommendation likely sells ground rods.Keep us posted.

 

[ning]

I'd advise grounding rods, yes... but also alternating grounded & hot wires on the fence, so that they'll get a shock if they brush up against the wires (at least one hot and one grounded) or if they try to stick their nose between two wires - and just to be certain that those are grounded well (though they should be, as you said, through the t-posts), connect the ground rods to the "ground" wire runs.

Our area gets very dry in the summer and a previously installed electric fence did poorly; I grounded my main horse fence (2x4 woven wire) and have stand-off hot wire, so any touch of the hot wire and the main fence gets a shock.

Only downside I know of this system is that the shock path doesn't go through as much of the body - if you can rely on the earth as ground, then you can get from nose to foot, nice long path vs a buzz from top of nose to chin. But, you still have the earth as a possible ground, so if they first touch hot and not the grounded part of the fence, they'll still get a shock - if the earth is a good enough ground there. Basically, it's a more reliable shock, though not necessarily always the strongest shock. More joules will mitigate that though...

I don't know cattle enough to know if poly will work with them; my thought is you want strong wire - high-tensile 12.5ga - for the hot wire for cattle (and me, to keep bears out).

 

[LouNY]

Depending on how secure your electric fence has to be will determine how it should be constructed.
As well as the animals to be contained, also they need to be trained to respect an electric fence.
Yes, the fencer should be grounded and the fence needs to be grounded. If utilizing more then one wire or ribbon it is advisable to use a low wire as a ground through the system. Also using the low wire as a ground helps the fencer as organic material won't hurt a ground were it can absorb much of a fencers output.
If running multiple stands only a few need to be hot. Our 5 strand high tensile fences have 3 lines grounded and two hot.
On damper ground such as we have in the North East once cows know what an electric fence is a single strand of poly wire on fiberglass posts (never handle fiberglass posts without gloves, the fiber splinters are horrible) will keep them in. Until animals are trained to it if they get to running they will bust right though and never slow down.

added; the poly ribbon works good as it is easily visible and cows will walk up to and sniff or lick it, very educational.

 

[ponytug]

@beowulf Congratulations on scoring nearly free fencing.

Electric tape is normally just for horses. Cows do fine on polywire rope, or smooth galvanized wire. For temporary fencing, I would not use galvanized wire.

I think that the biggest issue will be a getting good ground, but it is worth the effort. We have similar, dry soil, but without the hard rocks that I think you have. I think that you want all the grounding that you can get in my opinion. We use three ten foot ground rods ten feet apart, plus we run a ground wire to the barbed wire fence for some extra grounding, at each T-post. That still isn't enough during the dry season. We are about 2-4kV down from what we get during the wet season. If you can put the ground and the charger in the middle of the fence, it will be more effective. However, electric fence for cattle is a suggestion, and won't contain them if they panic, or really want to get to the other side.

If you are going to add something to the soil, I would suggest epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) as it works much better than salt, but it too will need to be renewed after significant rain. If you have an auger, you can auger the ground rod hole, put the ground rod in, and backfill with a mix of soil and epsom salt.

Good luck!

All the best,

Peter

 

[kenmac]

If you can't go down the recommended depth, you can always add more rods. I have rock about 4' ft down, so I added a ground wire to my non electric fence for xtra grounding

 

[beowulf]

Thanks to you all. I am paying attention to all you say. Again, my best source to help me get things done. . . right. The fence will be about 1200 feet and between and perpendicular to stretches of barbed wire fence. And with Ponytug's suggestion, I can put the energizer in the center of the run, and maybe can find some more cooperative soil somewhere in the middle. And I can also (?) perhaps attach a ground wire (from one of the alternate wires on the posts) to each barbed wire fence at each end. . . need to think about that.

And as Kenmac suggests - I can put in more posts less deep. This is only a temporary fence (maybe 3-5 months) and hate to try to go down 6' and then abandon the rods as not likely to get them back out. I am thinking about filling a 55-gallon barrel with water and with a drip line to each rod.

Again, my thanks.

 

[jaxs]

It isn't possible to "overground" so take advantage of ever and as many resources as practical. We were on sandy soil but your idea of moisture near rod was the only way we could get fence to work during dry season. I 100% agree half the battle is "training". Cattle traders use training to advantage by containing cattle with electric fence before putting them in rented pasture with poor fences.

A little off topic but relevant to training and just how much cows learn from an experience. In later years my brother pretty much handled our cattle and land. By 1pm most days he was half drunk and when drunk he was combative to put it mildly. When he came accross an animal that he couldn't push and herd like he wanted he pulled his 12 gauge from truck and peppered them with birdshot. I didn't totally approve but all things taken into consideration I didn't have a better solution until he picked up a dog which was a life changer(another story for another day). Any how I came to pick him up for a weekend fishing trip on a triple digit Texas Summer day. After he put his stuff in the boat and got in he said we needed to swing by one of the pastures to get that #*&!^ bull out of a neighbor's pasture. On the way I asked if the neighbor was lending his horse or going to help us. When he said neither I let him know the dam bull could hang out and we would come home early enough to take our horses over there. Brother told me all I needed to do was drive around and find the bull, I could set in the truck and he would handle it by himself. I thought aww sh'' he's in one of those moods. We drooped the boat and shortly found the bull with head in the air staring at the truck. Brother told me to stop by that tree over there. He got out, picked up a fallen limb,walked toward the bull waving it and hollering get your sorry azz home you old sob. Only those that have handled and faced down mature bulls can appreciate how difficult it is to frighten one enough to cause his tail to be held at half staff in retreat. I don't think his hooves touched the top wire when he cleared the fence. The bull thought that stick was a shotgun.

 

[EddieWalker]

How much power does your charger have? I'm using 2 joules on my fence for horses and goats.

I read somewhere that there is a significant difference between a copper coated 8 foot ground rod, and other types of metal. Ground rods are cheap enough at Home Depot that it's not worth using something else.

Do you have access to a SDS Max Rotary Hammer Drill? I own one, but when my previous one broke on me, I rented one for a day that wasn't too expensive. Their is a ground rod attachment for them that makes putting ground rods into the ground super easy. All you do is stand there and hold the SDS Max on top of it. It vibrates the Ground Rod into the ground.

I also use the proper fittings for the ground rod to attach my copper grounding wire.

My system was temporary too. It's been almost ten years, but hopefully, this will be it's last year. It was great at first, but the plastic holder for the wire and the tape keep breaking off, and I'm always replacing them. I also put it too close to my trees, and branches have caused all sorts of damage.

 

[beowulf]

Eddie, I have read that a joule a mile is a rule of thumb, but also read that much less than that is enough. My solar energizer is, I think, one joule. I will likely get started on putting this in in the next 2-3 days. I also realized that at one end of the (1400') run I have two nearby gates with 4" diameter galvanized steel pipe at each end of the gates with each pipe sunk into the ground at least three feet. I could attach ground wires to each of those - but I also put the posts in concrete so that may affect their effectiveness - though the very bottoms may be in direct contact with earth. I will have to check that out.

I will check out renting the hammer drill. For the fence posts themselves I use a battery powered drill with an auger bit where needed.

 

[oosik]

In the beginning - I ran an electric fence down one leg of my property. 1320 feet of electric fence.

I drove the one grounding rod deep. Around this rod I made a small dish in the ground. About foot and a half in diameter. Poured half a coffee can full of copper sulfate into this dish. Followed by a couple gallons of water. Best ground I've ever had. You can substitute salt if you can't find copper sulfate.

 

[ning]

hate to try to go down 6' and then abandon the rods as not likely to get them back out. I am thinking about filling a 55-gallon barrel with water and with a drip line to each rod.

Water definitely helps!

Given that ground rods are actually steel with a coating of copper, could you weld a chunk of metal on top that could be used to pull the rod out in the future?

I suspect that most ground rod installations are intended to be permanent (there's one in my meadow where a solar fence controller used to stand that I need to get out, or maybe I need to put a cairn around it, the old fence post is still there yet) so there's no point in them being sold with a bigger "top", but in this case an ounce of foresight could make it much easier to get a chain to grab it.

 

[ponytug]

Eddie, I have read that a joule a mile is a rule of thumb, but also read that much less than that is enough. My solar energizer is, I think, one joule. I will likely get started on putting this in in the next 2-3 days. I also realized that at one end of the (1400') run I have two nearby gates with 4" diameter galvanized steel pipe at each end of the gates with each pipe sunk into the ground at least three feet. I could attach ground wires to each of those - but I also put the posts in concrete so that may affect their effectiveness - though the very bottoms may be in direct contact with earth. I will have to check that out.

I will check out renting the hammer drill. For the fence posts themselves I use a battery powered drill with an auger bit where needed.

Concrete makes a pretty good ground actually. You can look up Ufer grounds if you are interested. I would definitely use them.

The trouble with rules of thumb is that they may not apply locally. And I think this is a case where they don't. With dry, rocky soil, I suspect that you will want much more than that based on my experience here. I recommend Premier1 fencing supplies for their solar chargers, or Gallagher. The latter were developed for and are used in Australia that has fairly similar soil conditions to Northern California. The other half of the rule of thumb is the resistance, or lack of it, in your electric fence. Tinned copper is excellent, stainless less so, but having lots of strands helps the pulses travel well and survive wear and tear.

Water definitely helps!

Given that ground rods are actually steel with a coating of copper, could you weld a chunk of metal on top that could be used to pull the rod out in the future?

I suspect that most ground rod installations are intended to be permanent (there's one in my meadow where a solar fence controller used to stand that I need to get out, or maybe I need to put a cairn around it, the old fence post is still there yet) so there's no point in them being sold with a bigger "top", but in this case an ounce of foresight could make it much easier to get a chain to grab it.

I've never found pulling ground rods that hard. Using a sledge hammer or a large monkey wrench to break the bond with soil is step one for me, and then either a lift a lift with a t-post puller or some other chain and lever has worked for me. In rocky soil, I rotate the rod if it jams against an unseen rock. I pull old posts with my FEL, but I have never attempted a ground rod. Of course, if you have time, wetting the soil in advance will help, if you don't have lots of rocks.

All the best,

Peter

 

[beowulf]

Thanks again guys. Heading out to start. Bought some galvanized grounding rods and connectors. But also have here some old half inch galvanized water pipe, and some half inch electrical conduit that I may use for these reasons: One - I can fill them with water from time to time and let them drain into the soil at the bottom, and as electricity travels on the surfaces - I will have more surface (inside and outside). Probably way over thinking, but hey, that is part of the fun.

 

[beowulf]

I thought I should update this post to let you all know what I did and how it worked out.

First, I put three grounding rods at the charger end of the fence and three at the far end of the fence (about a 1/4 mile run). Each rod went in about 4-5 feet and I added water and salt. I also added a grounding rod at the mid point - in about 5 feet. Anyway, with that set up and a 14 gauge electrified wire, I had no effective charge anywhere along the run. It was/is just too totally dry.

So, then I ran three parallel wires about 4 inches apart for the entire run. The top wire was charged, the middle was the ground and the lower wire was charged. I connected the top and bottom charged wires with insulated wires at about 4-5 points along the run - probably unnecessary. The idea was that if the cattle came close it was likely they would hit either one of the charged wires with the ground and get the shock. Usually, they approach with their nose. I put some spacers on the wires between the posts to keep the wires from coming in contact over distance. I then tested the charge at the far end of the run, and I had a very strong 9200-volt charge by touching either the top or bottom wire with the ground wire. (the tester I used - and like - is linked below). The charge has ranged from 7200 to 9900. The cattle apparently learned very quickly not to go near the fence as it has kept them away from the building site for the past month.

The charger is a solar American Farm Works, .15 joule, ten mile unit from TSC.

The tester is: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DCKG2SX/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

So, if the ground is too dry or you cannot ground the fence appropriately, a three wire with alternate ground and hot wires is an option.

 

[ponytug]

@beowulf thanks for the follow up!

All the best,

Peter

 

[ning]

I thought I should update this post to let you all know what I did and how it worked out.

First, I put three grounding rods at the charger end of the fence and three at the far end of the fence (about a 1/4 mile run). Each rod went in about 4-5 feet and I added water and salt. I also added a grounding rod at the mid point - in about 5 feet. Anyway, with that set up and a 14 gauge electrified wire, I had no effective charge anywhere along the run. It was/is just too totally dry.

So, then I ran three parallel wires about 4 inches apart for the entire run. The top wire was charged, the middle was the ground and the lower wire was charged. I connected the top and bottom charged wires with insulated wires at about 4-5 points along the run - probably unnecessary. The idea was that if the cattle came close it was likely they would hit either one of the charged wires with the ground and get the shock. Usually, they approach with their nose. I put some spacers on the wires between the posts to keep the wires from coming in contact over distance. I then tested the charge at the far end of the run, and I had a very strong 9200-volt charge by touching either the top or bottom wire with the ground wire. (the tester I used - and like - is linked below). The charge has ranged from 7200 to 9900. The cattle apparently learned very quickly not to go near the fence as it has kept them away from the building site for the past month.

The charger is a solar American Farm Works, .15 joule, ten mile unit from TSC.

The tester is: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DCKG2SX/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

So, if the ground is too dry or you cannot ground the fence appropriately, a three wire with alternate ground and hot wires is an option.

Good job!
Around here and likely most places in the west, the problem as you found isn't that the charger doesn't get a good ground it's that the cows don't; standing on bone-dry ground over dry grasses on dry hooves they may as well be wearing rubber-soled boots.

The alternating wire setup isn't ideal for shock because the current likely only travels a bit through skin and a bit of muscle instead of say from the shoulder all the way down to through the leg to the ground, but it's vastly better than nothing... and once it rains, you still have the full effect available.

 

[beowulf]

Good job!
Around here and likely most places in the west, the problem as you found isn't that the charger doesn't get a good ground it's that the cows don't; standing on bone-dry ground over dry grasses on dry hooves they may as well be wearing rubber-soled boots.

The alternating wire setup isn't ideal for shock because the current likely only travels a bit through skin and a bit of muscle instead of say from the shoulder all the way down to through the leg to the ground, but it's vastly better than nothing... and once it rains, you still have the full effect available.

Ning, while trying to figure this all out - i.e., keep the cows out of that area, I read that placing a ribbon of chicken wire (maybe 2' wide) along the e-fence line would be effective as well - just attach the chicken wire to the ground wire. Seems that would work, but not practical to place that much chicken wire. But I guess if you put it in a few strategic places, it could be a deterrent.

 

[RayIN]

FWIW; I had to string an electric fence over a creek many years ago, no way to drive a steel post in the creek that was 30'wide and no way to get the wire low enough so cattle couldn't walk under the wire.
I hung sections of galvanized roofing off the wire that came within 2' of the water, which worked quite well.
Dad had just bought a new bull and he was constantly looking for a way out of that pasture. I was watching him one day he was at the creek fence. He put his head down to push his way through; well he was standing in water when his head contacted the roofing panel.
I didn't know a bull could crap that far__.
That was the last time he tried to get out by walking in the creek.

 

[ning]

Ning, while trying to figure this all out - i.e., keep the cows out of that area, I read that placing a ribbon of chicken wire (maybe 2' wide) along the e-fence line would be effective as well - just attach the chicken wire to the ground wire. Seems that would work, but not practical to place that much chicken wire. But I guess if you put it in a few strategic places, it could be a deterrent.

That would work - but I'd be afraid that longer term someone's going to get stuck to the chicken wire. Probably not this year, but the stuff doesn't last real long in direct ground contact once things get muddy. We're dry as a bone usually here in the summer, but get very familiar with the other stuff in the winter...