dumb question about HST

[4570Man]

If I had a tractor hitched to the back, the extra weight would probably prevent tires from spinning (especially so on pavement), so the extra torque would be used to accelerate the load.

My tractors are set up to pull both bumper and gooseneck trailers from the FEL and 3-pt and I do use them for this purpose regularly.

You’re pulling a GN trailer with a tractor as small as those Kubotas? If you were buying a 100 hp tractor HST probably isn’t what you need but HST makes a lot of sense in small tractors.

 

[ptsg]

I've never owned (or used) an HST tractor, so I have to ask this question:

If you're going to "road" your tractor, do you start out in high range, or do you (depending on the load behind you) start in low , speed up, then shift on the fly into medium, speed up more, then shift on the fly into high?

Is that even possible?

If not, then how well a tractor starts out in high range under load seems like a reasonable question.

I'll also state the obvious that the geared tractor would have more torque in medium and low also.

With a gear transmission, you put it in High range, 1st gear and go through the main gears (1st to 4th in the case of the 5520R) just like a car.

With an HST transmission, you hope it can even start pulling the load in high range. Then have to come to a complete stop in the slightest of hills, to switch to medium range and hopefully it will hold the medium range.

Range gears, regardless of the type of the transmission, are meant to be switched with the tractor completely stopped, or you risk damaging the gears or shift collars.

Anyway, here is me pulling a load of logs with my tractor with a 12x12 transmission. Always in High range. In the first 40 seconds, I'm in 1st gear going uphill with about 15 to 20 degree slope. Then, on the main road, I just up-shift through the gears.

I recently got a bigger trailer. Can't wait to put a good load on it and go test it out.

These things are so easy and simple to use. I just can't see it making sense on giving up on so much of what a tractor has to offer.

 

[mjonesnh]

I've never owned (or used) an HST tractor, so I have to ask this question:

If you're going to "road" your tractor, do you start out in high range, or do you (depending on the load behind you) start in low , speed up, then shift on the fly into medium, speed up more, then shift on the fly into high?

Is that even possible?

If not, then how well a tractor starts out in high range under load seems like a reasonable question.

I'll also state the obvious that the geared tractor would have more torque in medium and low also.

With my New Holland no shifting on fly. Have to be stopped to change ranges. With a 600lb bushhog on 3 point I takeoff in 3rd with no problem. Pull steepest hill in that area around farm without issue. Tractor has loader on full time but I do drop the bucket when mowing.

 

[oldnslo]

Starting out pulling a load or climbing hills with load:

HST in theory will use full engine HP in any speed range. The unknown is will there be enough torque to pull the load in high range but you can typically stall the engine so the HST is not the limiting factor. You have to stop to shift ranges with HST so momentum is lost.

True gear you may be able to start load in high gear but if not you start in lower gears and then shift up. This requires getting to know the tractor since most tractors do not have synchronized transmission. You have to judge engine RPM vs ground speed to shift without the grindem till ya findem method of shifting.

Climbing hills same thing must coordinate ground speed to engine RPM.




Just an FYI: IVT or CVT transmission are modified version of HST. Deere has released an electric version of there IVT on the 410 HP tractor.

 

[Rockbadchild]

I've never owned (or used) an HST tractor, so I have to ask this question:

If you're going to "road" your tractor, do you start out in high range, or do you (depending on the load behind you) start in low , speed up, then shift on the fly into medium, speed up more, then shift on the fly into high?

Is that even possible?

If not, then how well a tractor starts out in high range under load seems like a reasonable question.

I'll also state the obvious that the geared tractor would have more torque in medium and low also.

I basically never use high range on my HST tractor unless on flat ground and not under load, medium range always until its too much, so often for moldboard plowing and pulling my disk I have to go to low range, I can get a full buckets in a fluff out pile of gravel in medium range but if its compacted I need to go on low range. That's annoying, go in the pile in med range, switch to low range, get your bucket, switch to med range ect. For mowing (brush hogg) I use medium range all the time there's no issue there.

When I got my tractor I wish it was geared for the extra PTO hp but for certain application HST is really nice like bucket work, turning around in tight spots and even mowing as you can stop on a dime but yes it certainly has its annoyance (some good point has been brought up)... I also saw my neighbor trying to fill his bucket with a geared tractor and that looked painful (I think I would've done a better job but still) you have a very good control over your speed with a HST transmission. That being said I don't think I have a bias of one vs the other I think they both have their strength and weakness but my next one will probably be a geared tractor.

 

[4570Man]

With a gear transmission, you put it in High range, 1st gear and go through the main gears (1st to 4th in the case of the 5520R) just like a car.

With an HST transmission, you hope it can even start pulling the load in high range. Then have to come to a complete stop in the slightest of hills, to switch to medium range and hopefully it will hold the medium range.

Range gears, regardless of the type of the transmission, are meant to be switched with the tractor completely stopped, or you risk damaging the gears or shift collars.

Anyway, here is me pulling a load of logs with my tractor with a 12x12 transmission. Always in High range. In the first 40 seconds, I'm in 1st gear going uphill with about 15 to 20 degree slope. Then, on the main road, I just up-shift through the gears.

I recently got a bigger trailer. Can't wait to put a good load on it and go test it out.

These things are so easy and simple to use. I just can't see it making sense on giving up on so much of what a tractor has to offer.

An American tractor that small with a 12x12 transmission is almost unheard of. That Kubota in the video with a 1-4-hi-low which is absolutely garbage to use would be much more common.

 

[ptsg]

An American tractor that small with a 12x12 transmission is almost unheard of. That Kubota in the video with a 1-4-hi-low which is absolutely garbage to use would be much more common.

I find that a bit hard to believe.

TYM: 15 series has 12x12, 20 series has 16x16. Some of the 3 digit models have 12x12 and 16x16, very few have 8x8.

Kioti: CK series and above, all have at least 12x12. Some 16x16. Their website is wrong by listing a 9x3 on nearly all models though. I have the service manuals saying otherwise.

LS: MT2 series and up, all seem to offer 12x12 at least, after a quick look.

Mahindra seems to have various 12x12 models as well.

Can't really access the Kubota USA website without VPN though, to check what they have.

All of these tractors are US models. They're available out there, starting in the compact tractor size, 25hp and up, with synchronized shuttle and main gears.

 

[Eagle1]

I find that a bit hard to believe.

TYM: 15 series has 12x12, 20 series has 16x16. Some of the 3 digit models have 12x12 and 16x16, very few have 8x8.

Kioti: CK series and above, all have at least 12x12. Some 16x16. Their website is wrong by listing a 9x3 on nearly all models though. I have the service manuals saying otherwise.

LS: MT2 series and up, all seem to offer 12x12 at least, after a quick look.

Mahindra seems to have various 12x12 models as well.

Can't really access the Kubota USA website without VPN though, to check what they have.

All of these tractors are US models. They're available out there, starting in the compact tractor size, 25hp and up, with synchronized shuttle and main gears.

And if I did a lot of towing or ground work it would be a good fit. I spend way more time moving/stacking round bales, clearing deep ditches, moving gravel into tight places, bringing firewood up to the house, processing steers and deer, etc.
Straight line power does little for me, fitting the tractor some place doing 18 point (only slightly inflated) turns to fit, is more likely to be my problem.
I like my HST when I have to fit something in a tight space and have to maneuver precisely to get there.
You know there are good points to all systems and choosing for your needs is important. My Tractors never see the road but are driven on tight ATV trails through heave forest on a regular basis. Nothing flat, it is nice to just lift a foot and stop while figuring your next move BEFORE you are sucked into that hole.

I'm all for choices so everyone can find what they want of need. Had a gear tractor and it was not nearly as useful as the HST for MY applications. My opinion only and YMMV

 

[ericm979]

I have one of each. The Deere is gear, with no synchromesh in the range or main transmission with the exception being between low range and reverse. Deere makes a big deal about that one set of synchros! Smaller and cheaper gear tractors are typically no synchromesh.

The mowing I do with the Branson is around a lot of obstacles and I'm going in reverse nearly as much as forwards. With the Deere being at a different property that's more open I can mow going forwards.

The biggest problem with the Deere's transmission is having to stop to change gears. As I mow around a field I usually can go faster on some legs of the pattern and need to go slower on others. I have to decide if the gear changes will save me enough time to be worth doing. Plus every time I have to start from a stop I'm wearing the clutch more.

Even without the stopping problem, the gears mean that I'm either going faster than I want or slower. It's rare when the trans gives me exactly the speed I would pick. There's only low 2 and 3 in the range I'd use for mowing.

When I buy another tractor it won't be a gear tractor like the Deere. Maybe I'd be ok with a power shuttle with 12 speeds in stead of the Deere's 8. But I'm leaning towards another HST, if it will be big enough to run the small hay equipment and do the other tasks it will need to do.

 

[ptsg]

And if I did a lot of towing or ground work it would be a good fit. I spend way more time moving/stacking round bales, clearing deep ditches, moving gravel into tight places, bringing firewood up to the house, processing steers and deer, etc.
Straight line power does little for me, fitting the tractor some place doing 18 point (only slightly inflated) turns to fit, is more likely to be my problem.
I like my HST when I have to fit something in a tight space and have to maneuver precisely to get there.
You know there are good points to all systems and choosing for your needs is important. My Tractors never see the road but are driven on tight ATV trails through heave forest on a regular basis. Nothing flat, it is nice to just lift a foot and stop while figuring your next move BEFORE you are sucked into that hole.

I'm all for choices so everyone can find what they want of need. Had a gear tractor and it was not nearly as useful as the HST for MY applications. My opinion only and YMMV

I work and maintain a couple of orchards, so working in tight places with loads and loads of direction changes is what I do the most. I can maneuver as precisely as I want around all of those tress and tight quarters.

Obviously, one should buy what fits their use the best. That's wasn't my point, ever.

My point was just about all the myths that get spread out towards the geared transmissions. 99% of them are completely unfounded.

 

[Eagle1]

I work and maintain a couple of orchards, so working in tight places with loads and loads of direction changes is what I do the most. I can maneuver as precisely as I want around all of those tress and tight quarters.

Obviously, one should buy what fits their use the best. That's wasn't my point, ever.

My point was just about all the myths that get spread out towards the geared transmissions. 99% of them are completely unfounded.

We can agree on that, choice is good.

Guess it is funny I feel that way about CVT in ATVs, much prefer gears to belt drive...

 

[jyoutz]

A possible problem with HST on hills is controlling load or stopping going down hill. With HST you are decreasing the pump displacement to go slower or like gear you can idle engine down to provide engine braking - hydrostatic braking. Most HST have wheel brake pedals on same side of tractor as HST pedal so hard to use both at same time to stop.

Climbing a hill with HST on cruise will slow more than gear. How much depends on quality of HST components.

For pulling loads down the road I would probably choose gear vs HST especially if heavy loads on hills.

The MX tractors have the brakes on the left and the HST pedals on the right. And many of the other newer models do as well. I’m scratching my head wondering what you’re talking about with HST tractors pulling a load and up hills? Mine does all of those things very well.

 

[jyoutz]

We went from a 30 HP gear drive New Holland to a 40 HP HST New Holland. Have been using it for 3 years or more now. Here's my experience:

- HST sucks for transport (driving the tractor to a new location). It will not climb steep hills unless I'm in low or medium range on the transmission, and even in medium it'll struggle some if I have the FEL and an implement on at the same time. The gear drive tractor would pull up any hill in nearly any gear. This leads me to believe that plowing a field with a HST tractor would be a very slow operation. And it also means high range on the HST is useless in most conditions.

- Location of pedals is critical. Some brands are idiots and put the brake and HST controls on the same side. Do not buy from those brands. Some brands use a "treadle" instead of individual forward and reverse pedals. I hate those also. My New Holland has independent forward reverse on the right, and independent left/right brake on the left. That's much safer and much more "user friendly".

- Cruise control is a must. Some brands do not include cruise control standard on HST models. New Holland did, and I am thankful.

- After using the HST tractor for a few years I would never go back to gear drive. Loader work, grading work, and all work that requires slow finesse is lightyears easier and safer with HST. I absolutely love it. I don't plow fields with it, so HST is the way to go for me.

Unrelated side note: My new tractor uses a turbo to get the 40 HP rating. When at PTO RPM (mowing, etc.) the turbo engines will drink diesel fuel like they've got a bad habit. Keep that in mind. Between feeding that engine enough fuel to keep up with the airflow from the turbo, and the fact that the hydrostat consumes a lot of horsepower, you're going to need to keep diesel fuel on hand. When I'm not doing PTO work I run the engine at 1700 RPM and then it's fairly efficient.

It all depends on the hp of the HST tractor. My 63hp HST pulls hills very well without any hesitation.

 

[oldnslo]

The MX tractors have the brakes on the left and the HST pedals on the right. And many of the other newer models do as well. I’m scratching my head wondering what you’re talking about with HST tractors pulling a load and up hills? Mine does all of those things very well.

Smaller CUT tractors with dual range HST have an issue of significant gear increase from HST to rear wheels in high range so they really struggle pulling load up hills similar to the older M & H Farmall with 5th road gear. Go fast down the road but wouldn’t pull their shadow up hill.

Larger tractors with larger HST this is less of a problem

 

[jyoutz]

Smaller CUT tractors with dual range HST have an issue of significant gear increase from HST to rear wheels in high range so they really struggle pulling load up hills similar to the older M & H Farmall with 5th road gear. Go fast down the road but wouldn’t pull their shadow up hill.

Larger tractors with larger HST this is less of a problem

Do they still sell tractors with only dual range HST?

 

[oldnslo]

Do they still sell tractors with only dual range HST?

To the best of my knowledge yes that is still a semi common feature. I believe Deere 2,000 series, some Kubota B series and BX series, TYM Branson have dual, etc.

 

[LouNY]

HST trannies are not my favorite for much of anything.
I've used and ran large old Hydro's IH656,1026, hydro100 when they were new. Excellent on PTO work and nice and handy for cultivators but that was about it.

At the present time sitting in my yard is Kubota F2000 lawn mower (19 Hp) it's hydrostatic and does an excellent job.

Next up is the little Kioti CK2620 it is a hydrostatic (25 Hp) it does the job were I and when I wish to go real slow and my wife isn't very afraid of it. Otherwise it is very non-impressive, with the backhoe on it can just barely make the driveway in mid-range. I think it would have been a better tractor with a well geared transmission.

Next up the ol IH574, 4 speed inline shifted transmission with a hi-lo-reverse box also an inline shift pattern. It has been a good tractor used on back blades, a 14 foot wide area mower, an 8 ft snow blower, and it's many purpose these days a PTO generator. It's a quick snappy nimble handling tractor.

Then the tractor that actually gets used the most the Branson 8050 a 3 range (non-synchronized) with a synchronized 4 speed and a power shuttle. Easy to drive, easy to shift, good power and handling. Runs a loader with minimal effort. It used to go over to the farm until recently to be used on the corn planter and grain drill.
It tedded and raked hay, loaded round bales and such. For me it's driveway and brush hogging and flail mower, along with snow removal and similar tasks.

Then the big boy bought for one specific purpose a NH 8160 with 18 forward gears and 6 in reverse, all push button shifts with 6 gears and 3 ranges, then the left hand power shuttle. With a running weight of 13,000-16,000 pounds when she is chained up the pull type sand spreader behaves even on icey hills.
I bought her because the sander could push the Branson 8050 (12,000 pounds) some times coming down hill with a full load and possibly be a handfull.

I don't own a CVT (but I certainly would), power shifts and power shuttles are great, power shuttle and geared transmission are good, pure mechanical with a shuttle work good, hydrostatic transmissions are noisy, power sucking, easy to use, very inefficient transmission.

And that is my opinion having used many different transmissions over the years.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

Yeaaa, you never know when you are going to want to pull a load of logs home!

SR

 

[jyoutz]

To the best of my knowledge yes that is still a semi common feature. I believe Deere 2,000 series, some Kubota B series and BX series, TYM Branson have dual, etc.

I have to agree that HST would rob power from those lower hp machines and two ranges would be limiting. But typically they aren’t intended for pulling trailers and large cutters.

 

[oldnslo]

I have to agree that HST would rob power from those lower hp machines and two ranges would be limiting. But typically they aren’t intended for pulling trailers and large cutters.

I suspect that is part of the confusion on the thread. What HP tractor are we talking about being used for what purpose or purposes?

20-25 HP doing loader work in tight quarters or mowing lawn, or 40 - 60 HP doing some loader work, plowing or discing some food plots, brush hogging etc. or 100 plus HP doing farm work.
Would one tranny style be best for all those applications or is HST better option for 25 HP doing fine loader work while some form of gear or power shift would be better for 100 plus HP.

Like Lou I have driven tractors built in 50s and 60s that were pure gear with no shuttle or synchro, up to 500 plus HP with power shift.
Also drove an old Steiger with Allison automatic and hi lo range where you had to be at dead stop to shift from hi to lo.

Have only spent couple hours on IVT or CVT. Biggest concern that I have read about the *VT trans is power loss to draw bar but have no actual seat time to confirm this.