DPF vs. NO DPF (75hp edition)

[Xfaxman]

Thought the stage IV D18 diesel was DOC and Stage V DOC+DPF?

Yep, it is. I couldn't find any info on the Bobcat Website for the new models, so I thought it was the same as our 5610 G Series.

Edited the post.

 

[MinnesotaMorg]

Jay are you saying that all the 2021/2022 Workmaster 75 tractors being sold are just rebranded 2010-2014s? Honestly asking because that would be scary if tractor dealers/companies just rebrand their old stock of tractors that didnt sell every year.

 

[jaydee325]

Jay are you saying that all the 2021/2022 Workmaster 75 tractors being sold are just rebranded 2010-2014s? Honestly asking because that would be scary if tractor dealers/companies just rebrand their old stock of tractors that didnt sell every year.

I was going by what I saw on Tractordata.com. They only show the Workmaster 75 as being produced in 2010-14.

The New Holland website shows the current Workmaster 75 and indicates the exhaust after treatment system is DOC only.

Sorry for the confusion!

 

[rScotty]

SNIP....... Honestly asking because that would be scary if tractor dealers/companies just rebrand their old stock of tractors that didnt sell every year.

In fact that's real close what the tractor manufacturers do. They make a basic model run of and then complete and sell them as orders come in. If it is a good selling model then a couple of years later they make another run of that model. Machinery & tractors aren't like cars which change every year. Machinery has serial number breaks for changes.

That's why your tractor will have two numbers: a serial number for when it was built, and the year that it was first sold. The first one is important and the second not very. Depending on how fast manufacturing happens and inventory gets moved, sometimes dealers have tractors on their lot from previous model runs.
It's one way to get a good deal.

 

[MinnesotaMorg]

Ill certainly have to keep a lookout for date of manufacture. I would figure that extra stock would quickly get discounted as who is going to want to be the guy paying new model prices for a tractor that has sat on a lot for a few years.

I went and test drove a tractor today and asked the sales guy why different companies go with DOC vs DPF. He seemed to think its more about the engine design and space available on each frame.

 

[rScotty]

Ill certainly have to keep a lookout for date of manufacture. I would figure that extra stock would quickly get discounted as who is going to want to be the guy paying new model prices for a tractor that has sat on a lot for a few years.

I went and test drove a tractor today and asked the sales guy why different companies go with DOC vs DPF. He seemed to think its more about the engine design and space available on each frame.

That sounds like a thoughtful sales guy. I might go back there.

On date of manufacture. It's interesting, but serial number is how you find out about design changes and that is more useful info. However, it's not easy information to find on current models. For obvious reasons.

And I'm curious. Why do you think they would they discount it?

Oh....., I guess you are thinking after it leaves the factory storage and goes to the dealer and he then has a monthly cost for his floor planning and models on display. Yes, if he is in a debt position he may be thinking that his money should be invested in something that moves faster. On the other hand, he may figure since it has sat awhile he might as well try to recover some of the price he paid to have it there.
My experience is that nothing but oddball & used implements sit at the dealer for years. More like months.

Or he may think, "It's here now & I've got other things to worry about. This one is uncrated and set up and checked out. Might as well just keep it. I've got to have one to show at the Farm Shows this summer anyway. If it doesn't sell there, I can always discount it next fall....or maybe get a premium price..... Farm show models always gets a few hours put on them and some people prefer that." (I know I do)

Here's a hint when buying: Think like a dealer; not like a customer.

When I had a shop I always figured parts and inventory as being like a bank account.
It was "safe" money and tended to go up in value rather than down. Especially if it was a good example of a preferred model.
A dealer sees each potential sale as an opportunity for profit, but it doesn't have to be money profit. It could be good will, future sales, a friend of a friend, advertising, or an interesting trade-in......but it needs to be something that builds the business.
good luck,
rScotty

 

[Number15]

Ill certainly have to keep a lookout for date of manufacture. I would figure that extra stock would quickly get discounted as who is going to want to be the guy paying new model prices for a tractor that has sat on a lot for a few years.

I went and test drove a tractor today and asked the sales guy why different companies go with DOC vs DPF. He seemed to think its more about the engine design and space available on each frame.

Some use both as well.
As emissions regulations got more strict systems that were DOC only were finding it harder and harder to pass. So from what I understand its role has changed a little in most 75hp+ engines(and some smaller). Instead of being used as the primary control system it is used as a sort of pretreatment. Among the things it does is act as a catalyst to "heat up" the exhaust gasses so that the DPF can spend more time passively regening.

I think there are very few machines created today 75+ hp that are DOC only. Most are DOC+DPF and some are even going SCR.

I wouldn't worry about which system, most of the issues have been worked out and as long as its not SCR requires no user intervention.

 

[Hozzie]

I would equate the entire DPF/Tier4 discussion on the internet to most things on the internet. The vast majority of response posts you are going to see about it are from people who had some type of issue or even more likely don't even have a tier 4 tractor, but have a strong opinion on it to show how smart they are. That's not to say that anyone specific in this thread doesn't have them or hasn't had an issue, simply that most of the time it's the small, vocal minority who seems to fill up most of the posts.

I would guess there are hundreds of thousands of tier 4 tractors out there today. Yes, some have had issues, but I am also confident the vast majority have not. Buy the tractor you like, use it, and follow the basic rules of regenerations and you will be just fine. Don't overthink it. The ergonomics and functionality of the tractor vastly outweighs any DPF/DOC discussion.

 

[JethroB]

Jay are you saying that all the 2021/2022 Workmaster 75 tractors being sold are just rebranded 2010-2014s? Honestly asking because that would be scary if tractor dealers/companies just rebrand their old stock of tractors that didnt sell every year.

After I purchased my Kubota I got curious of when it was manufactured. How long had it sat on a lot? (Bored + iPad on a rainy day I suppose). I knew my dealer got it from another dealer about 75 miles away. So I looked up the engine by serial number. The engine manufacture date told me my tractor was no more than 9 months old when I bought it.

This website IIRC:

Kubota Engine Serial Number ID | Kubota Engine America

Find all of the information you need to correctly identify your Kubota engine.Find all of the information you need to correctly identify your Kubota engine.

www.kubotaengine.com

 

[priberc]

Hi there,

I am new to the tractor game, I am trying to take my time and absorb as much information I can before I pull the trigger on a tractor.

Can someone explain to me why some tractors (MF 4707 / NH Workmaster 75) don't need a DPF and others in the same class (5075e / M4D-071) have a DPF? Everything I can find indicates that DPF is not desirable and will only serve to increase your initial cost and maintenance over time.

The Kubota salesman I talked to said new holland might be using engine credits or something. But would that mean that the consumer is just better off taking advantage of the companies using those credits? Assuming everything else is equal, is it in my best interest to choose a tractor with no DPF?

Thanks for coming to my ted talk
Morgan

My .25c worth.....Simply put if you don't need the 75+ HP don't get it and thus stay away from the urea. Urea = just another thing to fix when broken. 75 hp is a pretty big machine. Lots of work gets done with 50hp. Consider what you will be doing with it then compare physical size weight lifting capacities etc. Some times within a brand there is not a whole lot of difference between machine capacities besides HP.

 

[EddieWalker]

One of my hay suppliers has a John Deere 5055E tractor as his backup loader for round bales. It gets the job done, but barely. In my opinion, it's border line for lifting round bales safely. I think 65 to 75 HP is what you want if you are dealing with round bales. Bigger is always better, but for me, there isn't anything that I need a bigger tractor for. I think that's the ideal HP for getting everything done that needs getting done, and fortunately, it's also right under the 75 HP rule for DEF.

 

[Hay Dude]

One of my hay suppliers has a John Deere 5055E tractor as his backup loader for round bales. It gets the job done, but barely. In my opinion, it's border line for lifting round bales safely. I think 65 to 75 HP is what you want if you are dealing with round bales. Bigger is always better, but for me, there isn't anything that I need a bigger tractor for. I think that's the ideal HP for getting everything done that needs getting done, and fortunately, it's also right under the 75 HP rule for DEF.

I would value #1 weight and #2 hydraulic strength and #3 HP for a farm tractor used for loading bales.
Buy a loader tractor by its weight and loader lift capability for loader work.
Tillage tractor? Then I’d value HP/drawbar HP first.

 

[mo1]

One of my hay suppliers has a John Deere 5055E tractor as his backup loader for round bales. It gets the job done, but barely. In my opinion, it's border line for lifting round bales safely. I think 65 to 75 HP is what you want if you are dealing with round bales. Bigger is always better, but for me, there isn't anything that I need a bigger tractor for. I think that's the ideal HP for getting everything done that needs getting done, and fortunately, it's also right under the 75 HP rule for DEF.

A 5065E or 5075E is the exact same tractor as a 5055E but just with the ECU allowing more fuel and a higher turbocharger wastegate pressure setting. More power doesn't do anything for loader work unless the additional power comes in a larger, heavier tractor.

That being said, unless you are trying to stack 5x6 silage bales 3 high or stacking multiple bales at one time, a 5E is plenty of tractor for handling round bales. I've handled a number of them with mine. A 4 series sized machine is borderline for dry hay round bales in my opinion, particularly when stacking them.

 

[EddieWalker]

They guy normally loads round bales with a 100HP cabbed NH. It had a flat tire that day and he was using the Deere 5055E to load somebody before me, and then loaded me up. It got the job done, but it was struggling, and very, VERY bouncy!!!! That tractor was brand new, so my thinking was that it was just a matter of time of doing something like that until something broke, or wore out.

I'm surprised that it's the same as the 65 an 75 Deere's. Sounds like Hay Dude called it. The problem wasn't HP, the tractor just isn't heavy enough.

 

[WM75Guy]

I have the newest model Workmaster 75. Production started 09/2018, mine is a 2019 model. It uses DOC, so no regen was a big part of the decision to buy a NH. There is no mention in the operator's manual of emissions systems or how to operate the tractor to meet the needs of the DOC system. PTO speed for mine is 2000 RPMs. Even when not using the PTO I run it at 2000 RPMs. I know what the MPH is for the gear combinations I use at 2000 RPMs and that seems to be good for loader work. I doubt a plugged DOC filter will be an issue for me in my lifetime.

I did test drive and get quotes for the equivalent JD, MF, and Kubota models when I bought the WM75. The WM75 came in at the lowest price and I like the dealership, 4 Brothers in Terrell, Texas. No regen and being partial to the NH brand, my decision was not difficult. I paid $46,000 for 2 hats and they threw in the tractor.

 

[mo1]

They guy normally loads round bales with a 100HP cabbed NH. It had a flat tire that day and he was using the Deere 5055E to load somebody before me, and then loaded me up. It got the job done, but it was struggling, and very, VERY bouncy!!!! That tractor was brand new, so my thinking was that it was just a matter of time of doing something like that until something broke, or wore out.

I'm surprised that it's the same as the 65 an 75 Deere's. Sounds like Hay Dude called it. The problem wasn't HP, the tractor just isn't heavy enough.

A 100 HP tractor of anywhere near the same age is generally going to be only slightly larger than a 50-75 HP utility tractor. A current 100 HP Deere is still going to be a 5 series, you have to go up more in power than that to get to the least powerful versions of the next size up (6 series) chassis. Ditto with the blue tractors, a Workmaster 105 is only slightly larger than a Workmaster 55/65/75, the big jump up is to to the T6. I wonder if the "not heavy enough" part was he didn't have enough rear ballast, that would certainly cause a tractor to become "very bouncy," particularly if he was driving over rough ground, going 10 MPH, or stacking the second row of bales on a semi trailer.

I have used my 5075E to handle bales, and it is the same size as the 5055E, and it had no problems at all. I have also used one "the next size up" where that line went to 101 HP, and it did fine too, I didn't notice it really doing any better than mine. The only tractor I have used that I would say struggled at all with round bales was a 50 HP compact New Holland. It would lift them up just fine but it was best to go no more than about 2 MPH because that tractor really could get tippy doing that.

 

[WM75Guy]

Weight makes a big difference in moving hay. My TC40DA with loader weighs #4,300. My WM75 w/cab base weight is #6,800 and the loader probably adds another #2,000, for a total of #8,800. I can move and lift round bales with the TC40DA but it requires low speed, flat ground, and heavy ballast on the rear. The WM75 at twice the weight and 35 more HP is a grab and go situation.

 

[rScotty]

I'd say that the WM75 or the JD 50xxE are both a little light for handling round bales on anything except low lifts on hard dry level ground. All of them are about 3000 lbs lift at the pins, and a bale is way out in front of the pins. Why overload the tractor?
Trying to do too much with a loader is how to make a new tractor old in a hurry.
rScotty

 

[mo1]

I'd say that the WM75 or the JD 50xxE are both a little light for handling round bales on anything except low lifts on hard dry level ground. All of them are about 3000 lbs lift at the pins, and a bale is way out in front of the pins. Why overload the tractor?
Trying to do too much with a loader is how to make a new tractor old in a hurry.
rScotty

Most bales around here are 4x5/4x6 dry hay and weigh 800-1200 pounds. There are some 5x6s around but less common than the 4x5s and 4x6s. There are a lot of round bales around here as the county I live in is one of the top 20 in the entire country for beef cattle production. Lifting a ~1000 pound round bale with a tractor that can lift over 3000 pounds 11 feet up in the air is a piece of cake and a bunch of people use a tractor the size of the Workmaster 75 or 5E Deeres for feeding bales.