Down to two and need advice

[Rob327]

I've got the search for my first tractor narrowed down to two candidates with farily different specs that fit into my price range.

I've got quotes on a Kubota BX2360 and a Bobcat C225. I'm not partial to either brand but I am really happy with both dealers.

The BX23360 includes:
60" MMM, FEL, Industrial Tires and Balast box for what works out to about $13200 USD.

The CT225 includes:
60" MMM, FEL, 48" Tiller and Industrial Tires for what works out to about $14500 USD.


At this point I feel like the CT225 is a much better value and is substantially more tractor dollar for dollar, expecially since it includes a tiller in the price where the Kubota does not. I'm comfortable with the Bobcat dealer and confident that I will get good service from him but my dilema is that this might be too much tractor for my application and I will regret my purchase.

I have about 4 acres of grass to cut, about 70% of which is open and obstacle free. There's not much in the way of slopes but it is very uneven and I'd like to eventually level it and smooth the bumps and dips. I have about 650' of driveway to scrape and level in the summer and clear snow in the winter. I have about 3/4 acre vegitable garden, and about an acre of bush that I haven't decided what to do with yet. And probably the biggest variable of all, a wife who can come up with endless landscaping projects and jobs.

As far as the numbers game goes the CT225 is the clear winner. More hp, more than double the rated lift capacities on the FEL and 3pth, higher top speed. Those are all good but what I'm concerned about is the turning raidus, weight and fuel economy. Without really having used anything in that size range it's hard to judge how it will affect me.

The Bobcat has a turning raidus of 114" compared to roughly 86" on the Kubota and is almost 1600lbs heavier. What I'd give up in manuverability along with the damage I might do to my grass with the added weight might be enough to swing me back to the Kubota.

Any opinions on the subject would really be appreciated.
Thanks

Rob A.

 

[LAWALLSTRACTOR]

The Bob Cat isn't to much tractor, believe me.

 

[MDM]

Did you look at the Kubota B2320? It compares better to the Bobcat and has the 3 range transmission and not alot of extra weight. The mower deck might be a bear to remove on the Bobcat, I'm not sure though. The B series decks are very easy to remove. That said, the Kioti equivilent will likely be cheaper, but I'm not sure they offer a MMM.

 

[BarryinMN]

First it sounds like more attachments should be put on the intial pile.

Second how much time & temperament do you have to spend on tasks? ie clearing snow before work or retired & can push it off tomorrow?

Third a good dealer will bring out a machine to run on your terrain. Put a load on it & run. A little experience will answer your questions first hand. Landscaping is a red herring - you may not like the look of branches trimmed 7-8' up everywhere to clear the ROPS. Landscaping gets heavy fast & a runty little tractor = more manual labor & time to accomplish tasks, ie splitting up a pallet of sod to move it.

I mow with a JD diesel L&G tractor 60" about the same area as yours in approx 1.5h. No rops so no trimming issues. I have a CAT 0 6' landscape rake and a 48" box blade for road repair.

For landscaping & misc lifting I have a 33hp JD skid steer. 2400lb tipping load. Handy as a shirt pocket & lots of attachments. Plowed snow once last year with it's 60" bucket & seemed to take forever. Parked it out of the way in the shed & went back to snow clearing with cabbed ag tractor 8' bucket and blower on the rear.

Be sure to post pictures whichever way you go.

 

[IslandTractor]

Both tractors will do the job but they are very different machines. The Kubota is light, small and excels at mowing while the Bobcat/Daedong/Kioti will offer more in ground engaging and FEL applications. As others have noted, the BX series is really not a direct comparison to the CT225. I don't know how much more the Kubota B series would cost but the B2320 or B2620 would be a closer match.

I know that Bobcat does offer a MMM and that many Kubota owners like the MMM for mowing machines but if you intend to use the tractor as a utility tractor rather than as a dedicated mower, then why not consider a much less expensive rear mount finish mower or light/medium duty flail mower? The MMM will get in the way and is more difficult to remove/replace than a 3PT implement.

Based on what you have outlined, I'd say you need to decide whether you will be doing 90% or more mowing or not. If you are really primarily mowing then the Kubota BX with MMM is hard to beat. The CT225 is a lot more tractor and more versatile but if it were me I'd get it outfitted with something other than a MMM. The CK225 could run a six foot flail or six foot RFM both of which would cost less than the MMM.

Finally, the price you have for the Bobcat looks good but you might want to check with a local Kioti dealer for a quote on the identical CK27.

 

[BigD23]

Fuel economy? Haven't had that thought yet...More seat/field time, more fun.

Don

 

[dodge man]

I have a BX2350 with a 60" mmm and FEL. I haven't quit figured out why people keep pushing the rear finish mowers. I can't imagine mowing my yard with a rear finish mower, I just have to much stuff to mow around. The big plus on the rear finish mower is it's less akward to take off and on. Alot of times I just leaver the MMM on when I'm using the FEL. The MMM is fairly easy take off and on, but it can be a little akward because you have to reach under the machine. I'm guessing I can take if off in 5 minutes and put it on in 10 minutes. Sometimes every thing just lines up great and its really easy, and sometimes you have to fight it a little.

The BX2350 is a great mower, the cut is great. I do consider the weight of it to be a disadvantage. It is just going to rut a little more, smash down the grass a little more and cut up the yard a little more. The 4x4 and the ROPS and seatbelt make me feel alot safer as I have a hilly yard. I don't know if the Bobcat would be worse or not. If it has bigger tires, that might help with the weight.

I bought mine as a mower and added the FEL a few weeks later. Don't under estimate how much FEL work you will do. I figured 75% of mine would be mowing, but it is working out to 50% mowing and 50% FEL work.

I don't know much about Bobcat. It's made by Montana? If it is, I had my rear tires filled at a Montana dealer, and I liked the machines, although I didn't drive any. Kubota and the BX series of tractors have a proven record in my book.

Ignore my comment on Montana, they are apparently made by Kiota.

 

[Rob327]

Thanks for all the replies so far guys.
Initially I started by narrowing my search down to dealers within 100 miles which left me with Deere, Kubota, New Holland, Montana and Bobcat. Deere and New Holland were both way overpriced. Montana was being sold out of what used to be a Sterling truck dealership before Sterling folded. They didn't seem to know much about their product and I didn't feel too comfortable with them. I hadn't even considered Bobcat and had pretty much settled on the Kubota. I found out about Bobcat as an option while doing a little more product research on the Kubota on the boards here.

I wasn't even considering anything as big as the CT225. I contacted the Bobcat dealer for a quote on the considerably smaller CT122. He priced out the CT122 but also included a quote for a CT225 and claimed he could actually do the package cheaper on the larger machine because it's on the lot and he wants to move it whereas the CT122 would have to be special ordered.

So that's how I came to be stuck between such different machines. My main goal is to get something that fits into my budget that will reduce the time and energy I currently spend doing yard work. I live in an area that gets a lot of rain. The grass grows fast and is usually damp. With my 18hp Husqvarna lawn tractor I spent on average 6 hours, twice a week, just cutting grass. I would let it go longer but with the under powered mower the longer it gets the slower I have to go so it's not much of a time saver. Last summer I did 20yards of gravel and 14 yards of soil by hand and plan to do more so the FEL and a more capable mower are both must haves.

I think the mobility of the bigger machine would probably be ok for grass cutting because my grass is mostly obstacle free. I'd like to stick with the MMM though. I have no experience with rear mount mowers but they seem like they'd be a lot more cumbersome. The ROPS shouldn't pose much of a problem either and I can always get the tough spots with the lawn tractor.

The weight on the CT225 is probably my biggest concern for cutting grass. How likely is a 3000lb tractor to rut my grass? It does have bigger tires than the Kubota. I checked the tire specs on both and it looks like the Bobcat's tires have almost 3x as much contact area with the ground. Anyone else use a machine with that kind of weight on turf?

As for the attachments the price as quoted on the Bobcat already includes a tiller and I plan to get a box scraper to smooth out the lumps in the grass and go over the driveway but I probably won't get it until next year. I already picked up a nice 3pth snowblower because the price was right and I think either machine should do fine with it.

With the price being so similar I'm definitely leaning towards the Bobcat unless someone can convince me I'd be doing more harm than good trying to cut the grass with it.

Thanks again to everyone who replied.

 

[IslandTractor]

I mow with a 4000lb plus Kioti DK40se. I wouldn't want to drive across a golf green with it but it does fine in lawn grass so long as it hasn't just rained. You are correct that the width of the tires on the bigger tractors mitigates the negative weight factor.

I understand that coming from a lawn tractor with MMM that your natural inclination is to just get a bigger version. Do consider however that many many people with CUTs use rear mounted mowers in preference to MMM for a number of reasons. The MMM is the most expensive way to go typically and having it mounted does limit some of the other CUT activities unless you remove it (which negates a good part of it's value). The RFM does have disadvantages in areas with lots of buildings or trees but otherwise is just as good. Some of us have switched to light/medium duty flail mowers as alternatives to RFM or MMM as they are reasonably priced in comparison, are short (3ft extension vs 6ft with RFM) and give a good cut (depends somewhat on the blade style). Caroni has several models under $2K and a CT225 could run either the 5ft or 6ft model. There is also a eBay flail (?Bestco or something like that) for less than $1K which a few guys have reported on with good initial results.

 

[Gittyup]

I have the Kioti equivalent to the CT225. But, If I were you I'd reconsider the rear mount mower and then go to a Kioti dealer and check out the CK20 (Kioti no longer offers a MMM). It sounds like it might be more right-sized for your needs. In open spaces, a rear mount mower would be just as affective as a MMM. It is easier on/off and quite a bit cheaper cost.

Also, have you considered TYM? The T273 sounds like it would be perfect for you.

Be careful with some of the SubCUTS as they can have problems with range of lift on full size CAT1 attachments.

Now if your original question still holds, Island gave you sound advice. The BX will be a better mower, and the CT would be better as just about everything else. With your open land, though, the BX might not really offer any huge mowing advantage.

 

[Botabill]

Get the Kubota. Kubota make their machines. Bobcat makes a good skidsteer but is spotty on the other products they make or assemble. Bobcat uses Kubota engines in their excavator and though the engine is good the Bobcat excavator is not well liked otherwise. Could be the same with their tractors... why take a chance?

 

[Rob327]

I might have a look at what I can find locally for flail mowers. I like the idea of the shorter extension compared to an RFM. As quoted the MMM on the CT225 is roughly a $3200 add on because of the mid PTO not being standard. Could definitely save a few bucks there.

I've looked at TYM but I don't think there's any Canadian dealers that aren't a good days drive away. Kioti has a dealership about 2 hrs away so I might check that out this week if I can.. Or at least give them a phone call to see what they have to offer.

As BarryinMN suggested it would be ideal if I could get the Bobcat out to the property to have a look but the dealer is an hour away so I'm not sure how willing he'd be. Going to try tomorrow anyway.

 

[IslandTractor]

As quoted the MMM on the CT225 is roughly a $3200 add on because of the mid PTO not being standard.

Don't bother with local flails. They will all be US made and start at 4K or so. Unfortunately the US flail manufacturers only seem to make heavy duty models that are rock solid but way too expensive for personal use. Check out AgriSupply and the Italian made Caroni flails they carry. They seem to be the largest dealer/importer though I believe there are some independent dealers who carry Caroni as well. Caroni is a fine company that I think is roughly equivalent to Woods, Landpride etc. $2K would get you a TM1900 (75 inch cut) including shipping and I'm sure the six foot (TL1500) would be less. TM is what you will read about mostly on TBN and it is the "bush hog/finish" mower set up. The TL is more of a finish mower.

Here is what a TM looks like projecting from the back on a 40hp tractor:

 

[tractorjackleg]

I have a BX2350 with a 60" mmm and FEL. I haven't quit figured out why people keep pushing the rear finish mowers. I can't imagine mowing my yard with a rear finish mower, I just have to much stuff to mow around

They recommend them because they like Kiotis and I think Kioti either doesn't offer MMMs or they are real hard to come across. Before I upset everybody.. I know that there are benefits to a rear mower. But while you are trying to convince yourself they are so much better go look at similar threads on any forum for brands that offer a MMM and see how many people recommend them over a rear mower.

 

[IslandTractor]

They recommend them because they like Kiotis and I think Kioti either doesn't offer MMMs or they are real hard to come across. Before I upset everybody.. I know that there are benefits to a rear mower. But while you are trying to convince yourself they are so much better go look at similar threads on any forum for brands that offer a MMM and see how many people recommend them over a rear mower.

Fair point and I would agree if the main thing you do with your tractor is mow your yard. Considering flexibility and cost however starts to poke holes in the pro MMM argument. I think it is hard to argue that you would want to be out in fields or rough areas doing chores with a MMM lowering your clearance. As noted earlier they are also much more expensive than 3pt alternatives.

Regarding Kioti....they used to offer a MMM but it was not popular so they dropped it. Perhaps there is self selection involved as few people seem to buy Kioti's if their primary job is lawn mowing. Many BX or B Kubotas and smaller Deeres really are primarily mowing machines so it would make sense that MMMs are most popular with that group.

Again, my earlier post pointed out that if you are really going to be primarily mowing lawns it is hard to beat a BX with a MMM. However if you consider that the OP can get a 27hp CUT with a flail or RFM and a tiller thrown in for the same or less money than a BX with a MMM it shows you how overpriced these SCUTs with MMMs really are.

 

[tractorjackleg]

Fair point and I would agree if the main thing you do with your tractor is mow your yard. Considering flexibility and cost however starts to poke holes in the pro MMM argument. I think it is hard to argue that you would want to be out in fields or rough areas doing chores with a MMM lowering your clearance. As noted earlier they are also much more expensive than 3pt alternatives.

Regarding Kioti....they used to offer a MMM but it was not popular so they dropped it. Perhaps there is self selection involved as few people seem to buy Kioti's if their primary job is lawn mowing. Many BX or B Kubotas and smaller Deeres really are primarily mowing machines so it would make sense that MMMs are most popular with that group.

Again, my earlier post pointed out that if you are really going to be primarily mowing lawns it is hard to beat a BX with a MMM. However if you consider that the OP can get a 27hp CUT with a flail or RFM and a tiller thrown in for the same or less money than a BX with a MMM it shows you how overpriced these SCUTs with MMMs really are.

I can agree with that. And no doubt you can't argue the price factor. It's amazing what they get for some of those MMMs.

 

[Gittyup]

Notwithstanding the cost, the biggest issue with MMM is the difficulty in taking them on/off. Some models do it better than others. If I used the tractor for other chores on a regular basis where the MMM would be in the way, then the design would have to afford on/off in less than 3 minutes with no tools. Otherwise, I'd have to consider other options, like an RFM, or a completely dedicated mower.

Even on my JD, the mower deck attachment is well designed and I can take it off in about 3 minutes and put it back on in about 5 - 7. I still wouldn't want to do it on a regular basis. PITA having to crawl around reaching up under the tractor, rotating gauge wheels, pulling pins, attaching brackets, and drive shaft. I'm fortunate to be able to leave it setup as a mowing machine for the cutting season and have my bigger CUT for other tractor tasks.

Also, if I had a lot of grass to cut (> 3 acres), I'd want the biggest (i.e. fastest) mower I could get. An hour or 2 of mowing is OK. After that it's just plain monatanous. Usually, you can put a bigger RFM on a similar sized tractor than you can a MMM (I think mainly due to availability of big MMMs that fit a particular machine).

 

[Rob327]

I went to see the Bobcat today and I'm really impressed. It seems to be a quality machine with lots of features that really add to it's value.

The deal got even sweeter because he sold the last CT225 off the lot so offered the CT230 in it's place at no extra charge.

I'm still not very interested in an RFM over a MMM but after reading through most of the massive thread on flail mowers I'm really leaning in that direction now. I even watched a few youtube videos and I have to admit the cut is a lot cleaner than I ever would have imagined. The versatility of being able to cut the lawn and heavier brush with the same mower really appeals to me. Giving up a little bit of mobility for the added versatility and cheaper price tag seems like a good trade off.

The Kubota dealer seemed like a pretty nice guy so I'm going to give him the opportunity to either match the machine or lower the price.. Won't hold my breath though.

 

[Rob327]

I'm north of the border so anyone know a dealer in Canada for the Caroni? Or for that matter any reasonably priced brand in Canada?

 

[sevensandeights]

I am also looking at the Bobcat CT225/230. I'm not sure where in Canada you are but I am only 2 hours from Niagara Falls and my local dealer has really good prices right now and they are comparable to the ones you mention. Kioti can't touch the Bobcat tractors currently because both are offering free FEL's but Bobcat's rebate is nearly triple depending on the model so I don't know how much I would look into that brand if overall cost is a major factor.

As I'm sure you know, the Bobcat tractor (not implements though) is 99.5% the same as a Kioti, made in the same factory on the same assembly line. The main difference is the that Kioti uses their own loaders and backhoes whereas Bobcat uses Rhino brand loaders and backhoes. Depending on who you believe (comparing Kioti vs. Bobcat vs. Rhino spec sheets), the Kioti loader/BH has better specs compared to the Rhino but both have significantly more capacity than anything in the BX series.

I don't own either tractor and do not have any seat time in either but my research agrees with most of the opinions above. The BX is a great all around machine that can do some incredible things based on its size. However, the size is also it's limiting factor. The FEL has a capacity closer to 500lbs vs. 1000lbs on the Bobcat and there is minimal ground clearance, especially with a MMM attached. The BX series seem to be made with mowing in mind but can handle a variety of attachments. The Bobcat is a tractor that is designed to be used with various attachments, all of which would be bigger than what a BX could handle (72" rear finish mower, 60" tiller, etc.)

Here's a breakdown of the advertised prices (before tax):

CT122 with FEL, turf tires, and no Mid PTO for $10,675
CT225 with FEL, industrial tires and no Mid PTO for $10,595
CT225 with FEL, industrial tires, Mid PTO, one set of rear remotes for $11,495
CT230 with FEL, industrial tires and no Mid PTO for $11,899
CT230 with FEL, industrial tires, Mid PTO, one set of rear remotes for $12,388

54" MM mower $2395 (this is list price most likely could be negotiated)
72" rear finish mower $2495 (list price also)

If you go with a Landpride rear finish mower and King Cutter tiller you could save close to another $1000 compared to list prices for the Bobcat units.