DO NOT BUY TC40/45

[Dougster]

Hello Dougster, the way I look at it is a homeowner tractor is one that is bought by a homeowner to maintain his (or her) property. It may be 2 acres or 100 acres. The main issue is these machines see very limited use compared to a tractor that is in a heavy ag usage or state/town use where it is mowing every day while the grass grows. My friends who are homeowners and have tractors to take care of their property use their machines usually on the weekends when they have time to work on a project or mow the lawn. I wonder if anyone has figured out a duty cycle for tractors like they have for small engines?

As you have defined the term "homeowner" (i.e., up to 100 private acres of land), I will agree with you. But then the question becomes what to do about commercial/business use (by someone like me or LoneCowboy) on jobsites or in locations that demand a smaller tractor than 48HP or greater (NH's definition of UT vs. CUT). Are there any machines out there that you would consider appropriate for this? In my area, to be able to transport comfortably to a remote or residential jobsite, the tractors (or whatever) really need to have operational weights of 7,500 lbs or less.

In other words, is there any tractor w/FEL and BH or 3-point equipment weighing less than 7,500 lbs that you would consider appropriate for commercial/business use?

Dougster

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Kubota, NH, John Deere and all the other compact producers did not build these tractors for commercial use. They were built more for homeowners.

As I said before, compact tractors can do more then just maintain property but they will not hold up over time like a machine designed for that job will. I see compacts destroyed in vineyards trying to keep up with a TN-F or 5000N. I see compact TLB's destroyed on construction sites as people try to use them like a full size TLB. These tractors can do the work but it is slow and it is very easy to over work them by trying to do too much.

And for construction work the last thing I would want is a 3pt backhoe on a compact. A small mini would out work it 10 fold and not even break a sweat. If someone is serious about doing digging then they need to have the proper equipment. Most contractors will agree with me that a TLB is a tool that is ok but is not great at any of the things it is designed to do.

So basically, if you buy a tractor designed for homeowner use and use it more commercially then you have to expect it to break down more. Brian is having trouble with his tractor and I don't think it is because of use but more so because the dealer is incompetent and can't/won't fix it.

Again, I wonder if anyone has come up with a duty cycle rating for tractors like they have for small engines. The homeowner grade machines are built to last 50 hours or so while the higher end machines are built to last easily over 200 hours.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

I agree with what you posted, but I can only react to what people write. In this thread, IH3444 further explained his comments re: hydros. But in the other thread (Click Here) someone actually said they were reconsidering their purchase of a NH tractor until they see the resolution of Brian's issue with his TC.

I LOVE reading this sort of thread, more as a study of human nature than of facts on buying a tractor. The lynch mob mentality is running rampant. If it were to be decided here, the poor New Holland rep would be meeting a gang with a short rope and a tall tree come this friday.

Brian isn't happy. The dealer in question has obviously dropped the ball. Now it's time to see if "corporate New Holland" can step up to the plate and deliver. Before we start tightening that noose, let's give them their day in court folks, before condemning their entire product line.

 

[jimg]

"Again, I wonder if anyone has come up with a duty cycle rating for tractors like they have for small engines. The homeowner grade machines are built to last 50 hours or so while the higher end machines are built to last easily over 200 hours."

Now thats an interesting question! Im sure that data does exist but would never make it to a public forum...at least w/o being highly sanitized by legal/marketing/managment/etc. It was all well thought out during the engineering design phase when engineering/mfg and marketing/sales worked out the particulars. Still, it would be interesting to know. You can be certain its a compromise though. No way you can get complete agreement from the group above.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

"Again, I wonder if anyone has come up with a duty cycle rating for tractors like they have for small engines. The homeowner grade machines are built to last 50 hours or so while the higher end machines are built to last easily over 200 hours."

Now thats an interesting question! Im sure that data does exist but would never make it to a public forum...at least w/o being highly sanitized by legal/marketing/managment/etc. It was all well thought out during the engineering design phase when engineering/mfg and marketing/sales worked out the particulars. Still, it would be interesting to know. You can be certain its a compromise though. No way you can get complete agreement from the group above.

Maybe I'm just negative, but I'd say there PROBABLY is a rating with-in most manufacturers on just that concept, only in a "built not to exceed a given timeframe" logic. That built in obsolescence thing.

 

[jimg]

There are 2 sides (maybe more too) to the positive/negative issue: company (Will this make me a profit?) and customer (Does this do what I want cost effectively?). From an engineering POV you can build ANYTHING. The problem is time to market (marketing/sales), cost to build (mfg) and profit margin (finance)...amoung other things. In the end the widget is a compromise of many factors and is what it is. The widget company hopes the buying public will accept it. Part of that equation is properly setting expectations which is a partnership of company and sales force.

Do you want it quick, good or cheap? Pick 2...

 

[Dougster]

I LOVE reading this sort of thread, more as a study of human nature than of facts on buying a tractor. The lynch mob mentality is running rampant. If it were to be decided here, the poor New Holland rep would be meeting a gang with a short rope and a tall tree come this friday. Brian isn't happy. The dealer in question has obviously dropped the ball. Now it's time to see if "corporate New Holland" can step up to the plate and deliver. Before we start tightening that noose, let's give them their day in court folks, before condemning their entire product line.

With all due respect Junk... I know that Brian is not a very happy camper right now and it shows... but who here is saying that the entire NH product line should be condemned? Or that the poor NH rep should be hanged? I am just not seeing this lynch mob mentality you speak of (maybe I should re-read all the posts again?). I am seeing a tractor-related small businessman much like myself with a serious problem and wondering how it's all going to turn out. No more, no less.

Or did I take too many tranquilizers today to see the much darker side?

Dougster

 

[Dougster]

Kubota, NH, John Deere and all the other compact producers did not build these tractors for commercial use. They were built more for homeowners.

Well, that settles that once and for all. Brian and I and anyone else out there trying to use an under 48 HP tractor for commercial purposes are doomed. How stupid of us.

Dougster

 

[hazmat]

With all due respect Junk... I know that Brian is not a very happy camper right now and it shows... but who here is saying that the entire NH product line should be condemned? Or that the poor NH rep should be hanged? I am just not seeing this lynch mob mentality you speak of (maybe I should re-read all the posts again?). I am seeing a tractor-related small businessman much like myself with a serious problem and wondering how it's all going to turn out. No more, no less.

Or did I take too many tranquilizers today to see the much darker side?

Dougster

I think his comment was a bit tongue in cheek...

 

[Dougster]

I think his comment was a bit tongue in cheek...

Well, maybe so. My sense of humor is in the crapper today. I think it's the weather... or maybe just old age and senility.

Dougster

 

[hazmat]

Kubota, NH, John Deere and all the other compact producers did not build these tractors for commercial use. They were built more for homeowners.


Robert -

????? I strongly disagree. I understand that you are farming with your tractors, but there are many other "commercial" uses that suit a compact better.

There are countless compacts being used for landscaping, snow removal, mowing, golf course / atheletic field maintanence etc. The local rental yard has a few Kubota TLBs that have a couple thousand hours & are still running in top shape.

While I am the "yuppie homeowner" with the Kubota that Dougster referred to I never babied my TC18 & got 680 near trouble free (1 leaking front hub fixed under warranty) hours out of it in 5 years.

As an engineer - I highly doubt the manufacturers are purposefully "derating" the compacts so that they will break in X hours / years causing you to buy a new one. Rather they keep adding new capabality / features so you want to upgrade.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Well, that settles that once and for all. Brian and I and anyone else out there trying to use an under 48 HP tractor for commercial purposes are doomed. How stupid of us.

Dougster

Take it however you want.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Hazmat, I never said these machines couldn't do the work people are doing with them what I did say is they are not designed for it over the long haul. It is not uncommon for a large farm to put 2000 hours on a tractor in one year with the majority of the hours working the machine the way it is suppose to work.

I am not saying they de-rate these machines, they just don't build them to handle the high hours/high work load that some people think they should. Why build a tractor to run 24/7 when 90% (rough guess at the figure) of the owners are people who use the tractor less then 10 hours a week. A tractor like a TS-A (T6000) now which is more geared towards the dairy farm/hay operations where they use these machines 30-40 hours a week need to be built for those conditions and workload. Am I right?

And most of the landscapers I know use skid steers for the heavy work and compacts for the light finish work. The Golf courses here use TN's and 5000 series JD's to mow their lawns and trade machines quite often (I am not saying some don't have compacts but the ones here don't).

Do you have a lot of people using compact tractors for commercial snow removal in your area? If so then there is something in your water as a compact tractor is not a great snow removal tractor. They can not handle a large blade and they are too light to really be effective. I use my 1920 to take care of the snow at the apartments as it does the job better then a shovel but I use the TN at the farm. The commercial guys run trucks and heavy loaders with large snow blades attached to the bucket.

 

[hazmat]

Many college / business campuses use compacts to remove snow from the paths crossing the "quads". They fit the niche where you don't want to do it by hand or with a walk behind unit, but can't fit a "full size" machine / truck in there.

For road or parking lot work, of course, big trucks & loaders etc.

 

[LoneCowboy]

You have to use the correct tool for the job.
I don't disagree a utility is a much better tractor and if you search my posts, you'll see that.
But not ina 1 acre plot
And I do lots of 1 to 5 acres.
If i can use the utility, I do, but many times I cannot, the compact has to do. Sometimes even only a subcompact will do (and those I don't do, but someone does)
I agree the compact won't last like a utility and my posts over time have shown that. The utility has lower maint. costs and will last much longer.
But, it needs some space. I'll tell you this week i've been on 3 acre property moving 100's of tons of sand. (riding arenas), the biggest gate they have is 6 foot. Guess what? I'm using a compact, and I understand it won't last 10,000 hours like a utility, but it's not designed to.

I do expect my compacts to work out of the box and pull implements designed for it. Notice I don't pull my 8' mower with my 45hp tractor, that's too much. But a 6' mower isn't and in fact it really should be able to pull a 7'. But this current TC45 barely pulls a 6' up a hill. (in low low, it won't even max out)

And I haven't condemned all of NH"s line (yet ), I have my TN75 and love it. But, they (NH) do need to step up tomorrow. We shall see.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Brian, don't take my discussion with Dougster as a post towards you. I know there are jobs that compacts can do easier then a utility. That is why I own one. But like you I don't use the compact to mow 20 acres, I use the 7710 unless that is hooked up to something else then I use the TN.

Good luck with your meeting. Hopefully NH will give you a new tractor and a new dealer.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

I think his comment was a bit tongue in cheek...

M E ? I wouldn't do a thing like that. No SIR. NO WAY NO HOW!

 

[JerryG]

They are only built as tough, as durable, as strong, as long lasting as the majority of the people that buy them need. See how the commercial TLB has evolved from a farm tractor platform to what it is today. The commercial TLB needed to be much stronger than it was originally. If the home user as a whole suddenly jumped from using their compact tractor 100 hours a year to 500 hours a year, then the compact would have to go through many changes. Different companies even view their purpose differently. Some reduce the weight dramatically for mowing while other purposely built them with more robust jobs in mind. Different tractors for different jobs.

 

[Cobra-R]

Good luck with your meeting. Hopefully NH will give you a new tractor and a new dealer.

I don't understand, what did the dealer do wrong? Correct me if I am wrong, was this tractor built by the dealer? Is he resposible for it breaking? Heck, he has the least amount of control over a product than anyone. He doesn't design it, build it, and he doesn't operate it, but he is one of the first to be blamed.

LoneCowboy said himself in post #7 on page 1: "I don't disagree that my dealer's service department is less than optimum But none of these are setup or dealer issues."

He also mentioned that when he stopped and talked to the manager of the dealership, the manager immediately said to get the rep on the phone............. I don't know why everyone is so fast to condemn the dealer.


Brian

 

[Soundguy]

I agree with Jinman... A single instance does not automatically create a trend.

also agree that yuor unit is bad.. I wouldn't want a repair either.. I'd want a replacement..

Soundguy

Brian, my experience is quite different from yours (see attachment). Not only do I get lots of work done everytime I use my tractor, it climbs hills with a load very well. In the photo, I have at least two buckets of dirt in that loader and made 100s of trips up and down the pond dam. I believe you have a bad tractor, but I believe it is wrong to condemn a whole model because of your misfortune. Your tractor may be junk, but mine is not.