DK40 Doesn't Shut Off

[kantuckid]

I had an issue with my tractor not shutting off, then found the engine stop solenoid burned up & the applicable fuse blown. Also heat damaged was the nylon plastic toggle that the solenoid uses as a pivot to operated the fuel shut-off lever via some linkage.
My tractor is the older style fuel shutoff with a solenoid mounted via two 12mm screws to the side of the injector pump set-up and external linkage to fuel shut-off lever.
I ordered the parts, installed them & the fuse. With wife in tractor seat, me at right side of engine I cranked it, got a quick start but when I tried to shut off the engine it didn't stop and the new solenoid began to show heat. I quickly disconnected the blue wire single lead to prevent further damage and verified my new solenoid was still OK via a bench test.
After reading comments from frequent contributors/experienced wrenchers here here I am now replacing the "fuel shut-off relay(also called the-engine stop relay) which is the same part# as the "starter relay". On my tractor these are located either side of the much larger "pre-heat relay".
These parts are shown in other, older but related postings here under "no start" topics.
As stated here in the other "no-start threads" the Dorman relay # 84601 is a generic replacement, 30amp relay that's cheaper and easier to buy than the Kioti/Omron relay # C5510-43101, Kioti part # T4180-69951.
The O'reilly Auto Parts web page shows the Dorman relay and it is a standard stocked part with them but a 50k RT for me. Sells for $7.99.


Their web picture shows all wide tab connectors. My OE Omron relay has 2 wide and 2 narrow tabs.
Question- does the OE Kioti female wiring loom connector accept the wider tabs w/o filing off the 2 wider tabs?
Thanks in advance!

 

[ritcheyvs]

On your older DK there is a timer relay (unlike the ordinary stop relay on newer version). This timer relay powers the stop solenoid directly (not through another relay). The timer relay is supposed to apply power to the stop solenoid only for a few seconds (like 5-10 sec, I don't recall the exact number) when the key switch is turned to OFF. I don't know why the relay isn't stopping the engine unless it's not getting enough voltage to function. But I bet the timer relay is bad and it's providing continuous (but maybe low voltage) power to the stop solenoid. So I think you need to get a new timer relay. It's about $50 from MIE. In the meantime, don't wreck the new solenoid. You might try applying 12v direct to the solenoid to ensure it operates the stop linkages when the correct voltage is applied.

 

[kantuckid]

On your older DK there is a timer relay (unlike the ordinary stop relay on newer version). This timer relay powers the stop solenoid directly (not through another relay). The timer relay is supposed to apply power to the stop solenoid only for a few seconds (like 5-10 sec, I don't recall the exact number) when the key switch is turned to OFF. I don't know why the relay isn't stopping the engine unless it's not getting enough voltage to function. But I bet the timer relay is bad and it's providing continuous (but maybe low voltage) power to the stop solenoid. So I think you need to get a new timer relay. It's about $50 from MIE. In the meantime, don't wreck the new solenoid. You might try applying 12v direct to the solenoid to ensure it operates the stop linkages when the correct voltage is applied.

Thanks, I already had a handle on the relay setup from the earlier threads centered on the no start problem-which my tractor never had. I have a factory shop manual but it is for an SE model with the solenoid that has the internal rod.
I already confirmed the solenoid operates in place from direct application of 12v. I didn't bother to switch the two OE relays to see if the new solenoid operated as the wiring is in place and grounds OK on the solenoid. O'reilly's has the relay priced @ $7.99 and a stock item which I'll buy tonite.
My question was, if the OE Kioti connection will accept the generic versions tabs as the Kioti relay from Omron has two narrow tabs & two wider tabs-OR NOT?

 

[Spanner]

If - The 4-pin relay has its pins arranged as =II or II= ?

The two small pins are 'Signal' In/Out

The two wider pins are "Switched Power' In/Out

If you don't want to file the two 'Signal' pins - make a set of 4 leads to connect the relay to the socket. Male (Open) & Female (Insulated) Spade connectors, at each end, with a wire (x4). You can file two of the male spade connectors to fit into the socket and achieve the desired result.

Tape/Tie the relay to somewhere handy and make your connecting wires as long as necessary.

The relay doesn't have to be "In' the socket. It just has to be "Connected" to the socket - If you see what I mean?

 

[kantuckid]

The pins are in my hand now. with hang tab to my left they are l = _
FWIW, I'm a retired pro wrencher and know how to make the connections work. Thanks

 

[ritcheyvs]

Let's clarify which version you have. The older version has the solenoid mounted externally on the right side of the motor; it has one wire and it operates external linkages to stop the engine. The newer version solenoid bolts to the front of the engine; it has two wires and no visible external linkage. These two versions operate completely different. The old version is powered briefly to stop the engine. The new version must be powered continuously to allow the engine to run. I assumed you had the old version but you never confirmed that or stated the build year. Without knowing which version you have we are spinning our wheels. If you have the older version you need the Kioti timer relay and a generic relay won't work.

 

[kantuckid]

Thanks for kicking in.
I thought I was making clear that my tractor has the older style shutoff-which has the single blue wire and external linkage as I described in the original post. please read it again. Per my dealer where I've bought parts- the larger thermal relay (called the pre-heat relay) is glow plug related. the smaller ones I discuss are for starter & engine stop relay based on other threads and my dealer too.
If you are correct that I need the larger (Kioti only and retails for~ $50 thereabouts) relay then I'm confused and the dealer is wrong in what I was told. The ones on my tractor are IMO #28(small)#29 (large) and #30 (small) on the pictures showing in other threads here, with two smaller relays on the firewall either side of the larger relay you say I need.

 

[ritcheyvs]

I think this shows the correct schematic for your tractor. The DK40 schematic should be the same as the 45.

Scroll all the way to the end for the schematic. The stop circuit is is in the bottom left of the drawing. You will see the timer relay has seven electrical connections; I believe this is a short pigtail wire bundle with a connector at the end (NOT like a typical plug-in relay cube).

This image (zoom in) from the MIE online parts manual shows the timer relay (#8). I can't tell exactly where it is but it's not on the "firewall" with the glow relays. It may be on the side of the cowl or maybe behind the instrument panel.

As an aside, the service manuals for the old DK models were poor but manuals for SE (aka EX) models and later are quite good. If you are looking at an EX manual the stop solenoid and wiring are all wrong for your old DK.

 

[k0ua]

I think this shows the correct schematic for your tractor. The DK40 schematic should be the same as the 45.

Scroll all the way to the end for the schematic. The stop circuit is is in the bottom left of the drawing. You will see the timer relay has seven electrical connections; I believe this is a short pigtail wire bundle with a connector at the end (NOT like a typical plug-in relay cube).

This image (zoom in) from the MIE online parts manual shows the timer relay (#8). I can't tell exactly where it is but it's not on the "firewall" with the glow relays. It may be on the side of the cowl or maybe behind the instrument panel.

As an aside, the service manuals for the old DK models were poor but manuals for SE (aka EX) models and later are quite good. If you are looking at an EX manual the stop solenoid and wiring are all wrong for your old DK.

Yeah, that is a much more sophisticated unit than the simple relays on our later SE models. That is a relay and timer in one module.

 

[k0ua]

I don't know if this will help any, but here is a snip of the old style DK showing the electrical for the timer relay and stop solenoid.

 

[kantuckid]

I knew my DK SE manual was off for my tractor wiring wise but got it on ebay for the other information.
Based on the schematic and your comments Relay timer #8 @ $ 47.83 is the correct part for my DK40, to control my stop solenoid.
Please confirm I'm on the right track and I'll order the part?
Thanks, Mike

 

[k0ua]

I knew my DK SE manual was off for my tractor wiring wise but got it on ebay for the other information.
Based on the schematic and your comments Relay timer #8 @ $ 47.83 is the correct part for my DK40, to control my stop solenoid.
Please confirm I'm on the right track and I'll order the part?
Thanks, Mike

Mike inspect the tractor and if you see a module that looks like the one that rich pointed to in his link then you can be sure that is the correct part you need to order. My SE tractor is much different and does not have this module.

 

[kantuckid]

For future reference,etc., the full 18 page linked electrical schematic, #5, Main Circuit, shows the Timer Relay, part#8 with 7 wires connected. I just uncovered that relay which lies directly under the fuel gauge (right side) on the cowl side of the firewall. Access is via the plastic dash and other plastics surrounding and below the dash. The parts list shows that relay as T4340-60243 but (weirdly-the North Korean weird? influence) my part has a clear sticker with T4340-60242 on it? Maybe a superseded#?

 

[k0ua]

For future reference,etc., the full 18 page linked electrical schematic, #5, Main Circuit, shows the Timer Relay, part#8 with 7 wires connected. I just uncovered that relay which lies directly under the fuel gauge (right side) on the cowl side of the firewall. Access is via the plastic dash and other plastics surrounding and below the dash. The parts list shows that relay as T4340-60243 but (weirdly-the North Korean weird? influence) my part has a clear sticker with T4340-60242 on it? Maybe a superseded#?

I would guess the 243 is a upgraded part number. Pretty common.

 

[kantuckid]

I would guess the 243 is a upgraded part number. Pretty common.

Yep, the "!" beside the number is the usual tip off for a part information consideration on Kioti parts.

 

[CalG]

This thread is of interest to me. The timer unit on the Hurlimann started acting up some years ago. It is of a similar design in that current is passed to the fuel shut off solenoid only for a few seconds after the key switch is turned to off. The big difference is the replacement cost. Nearly 10X the price listed for the Kioti unit.

So, if the Kioti unit could be made to work, I would give it a try to augment the hand rod that is now connected to the fuel shut off lever and passed out to the operator station.

Can anyone advise what is the nature of the VACCUM SENSOR (Vacuum) on the schematic shown in post 10. Where would Vacuum be sensed on a turbo charged engine?

It appears that any solid jumper wire would defeat it. Similarly the "Hydronic temp sensor". But that safety shut down feature is part of the Hurlimann wiring harness.

 

[kantuckid]

As a life long motorcycle rider and one used to hand controls that always work (if the cables not broken),I did consider saving some bucks and simply running a cable to the fuel shut off lever. It even pulls toward the operator...

 

[k0ua]

As a life long motorcycle rider and one used to hand controls that always work (if the cables not broken),I did consider saving some bucks and simply running a cable to the fuel shut off lever. It even pulls toward the operator...

There is something to be said for fail safe simplicity... Two tractors ago, (my Kubota 7500) worked that way. Had a little black knob to pull. Of course you had to remember to shove it back in the next time you went to start it.

 

[ritcheyvs]

I knew my DK SE manual was off for my tractor wiring wise but got it on ebay for the other information.
Based on the schematic and your comments Relay timer #8 @ $ 47.83 is the correct part for my DK40, to control my stop solenoid.
Please confirm I'm on the right track and I'll order the part?
Thanks, Mike

Mike: As far as I can see, the timer relay is the only thing that can be frying your stop solenoid or preventing it from stopping the tractor (knowing that you verified the solenoid functions correctly on 12v). That solenoid was intended to be powered for a only few seconds. So I am confident you need to replace the timer relay.

As others have mentioned, the SE/EX is two generations newer. That EX manual is nicer but it will lead you astray. You can find one version of the old DK40 manual at this link. This site is in France, I think, but the manual is in English. I have seen these manuals hosted on sites in France and Germany so maybe those countries (or the EU) require this data to be available (apparently not so in the US). There are often several versions of these old manuals; they contain errors and have not been updated, so use with care.

There is good news: the old stop solenoid setup does not seem to be vulnerable to the injection pump failures (broken gear teeth) that plagued some 2005-2008 models.

 

[xcgreene]

I knew my DK SE manual was off for my tractor wiring wise but got it on ebay for the other information.
Based on the schematic and your comments Relay timer #8 @ $ 47.83 is the correct part for my DK40, to control my stop solenoid.
Please confirm I'm on the right track and I'll order the part?
Thanks, Mike

Mike, have a look at this link 83.26.2.45 - /ftp/eclates pieces/KIOTI/

Never mind the foreign language on the titles, some of the documents themselves are in English, you just have to look for it a bit. I think you may find something very useful in there
:cough: CK, DK, and EX Workshop and parts manuals :cough: