DK40 Doesn't Shut Off

[kantuckid]

I had an issue with my tractor not shutting off, then found the engine stop solenoid burned up & the applicable fuse blown. Also heat damaged was the nylon plastic toggle that the solenoid uses as a pivot to operated the fuel shut-off lever via some linkage.
My tractor is the older style fuel shutoff with a solenoid mounted via two 12mm screws to the side of the injector pump set-up and external linkage to fuel shut-off lever.
I ordered the parts, installed them & the fuse. With wife in tractor seat, me at right side of engine I cranked it, got a quick start but when I tried to shut off the engine it didn't stop and the new solenoid began to show heat. I quickly disconnected the blue wire single lead to prevent further damage and verified my new solenoid was still OK via a bench test.
After reading comments from frequent contributors/experienced wrenchers here here I am now replacing the "fuel shut-off relay(also called the-engine stop relay) which is the same part# as the "starter relay". On my tractor these are located either side of the much larger "pre-heat relay".
These parts are shown in other, older but related postings here under "no start" topics.
As stated here in the other "no-start threads" the Dorman relay # 84601 is a generic replacement, 30amp relay that's cheaper and easier to buy than the Kioti/Omron relay # C5510-43101, Kioti part # T4180-69951.
The O'reilly Auto Parts web page shows the Dorman relay and it is a standard stocked part with them but a 50k RT for me. Sells for $7.99.


Their web picture shows all wide tab connectors. My OE Omron relay has 2 wide and 2 narrow tabs.
Question- does the OE Kioti female wiring loom connector accept the wider tabs w/o filing off the 2 wider tabs?
Thanks in advance!

 

[ritcheyvs]

On your older DK there is a timer relay (unlike the ordinary stop relay on newer version). This timer relay powers the stop solenoid directly (not through another relay). The timer relay is supposed to apply power to the stop solenoid only for a few seconds (like 5-10 sec, I don't recall the exact number) when the key switch is turned to OFF. I don't know why the relay isn't stopping the engine unless it's not getting enough voltage to function. But I bet the timer relay is bad and it's providing continuous (but maybe low voltage) power to the stop solenoid. So I think you need to get a new timer relay. It's about $50 from MIE. In the meantime, don't wreck the new solenoid. You might try applying 12v direct to the solenoid to ensure it operates the stop linkages when the correct voltage is applied.

 

[kantuckid]

On your older DK there is a timer relay (unlike the ordinary stop relay on newer version). This timer relay powers the stop solenoid directly (not through another relay). The timer relay is supposed to apply power to the stop solenoid only for a few seconds (like 5-10 sec, I don't recall the exact number) when the key switch is turned to OFF. I don't know why the relay isn't stopping the engine unless it's not getting enough voltage to function. But I bet the timer relay is bad and it's providing continuous (but maybe low voltage) power to the stop solenoid. So I think you need to get a new timer relay. It's about $50 from MIE. In the meantime, don't wreck the new solenoid. You might try applying 12v direct to the solenoid to ensure it operates the stop linkages when the correct voltage is applied.

Thanks, I already had a handle on the relay setup from the earlier threads centered on the no start problem-which my tractor never had. I have a factory shop manual but it is for an SE model with the solenoid that has the internal rod.
I already confirmed the solenoid operates in place from direct application of 12v. I didn't bother to switch the two OE relays to see if the new solenoid operated as the wiring is in place and grounds OK on the solenoid. O'reilly's has the relay priced @ $7.99 and a stock item which I'll buy tonite.
My question was, if the OE Kioti connection will accept the generic versions tabs as the Kioti relay from Omron has two narrow tabs & two wider tabs-OR NOT?

 

[Spanner]

If - The 4-pin relay has its pins arranged as =II or II= ?

The two small pins are 'Signal' In/Out

The two wider pins are "Switched Power' In/Out

If you don't want to file the two 'Signal' pins - make a set of 4 leads to connect the relay to the socket. Male (Open) & Female (Insulated) Spade connectors, at each end, with a wire (x4). You can file two of the male spade connectors to fit into the socket and achieve the desired result.

Tape/Tie the relay to somewhere handy and make your connecting wires as long as necessary.

The relay doesn't have to be "In' the socket. It just has to be "Connected" to the socket - If you see what I mean?

 

[kantuckid]

The pins are in my hand now. with hang tab to my left they are l = _
FWIW, I'm a retired pro wrencher and know how to make the connections work. Thanks

 

[ritcheyvs]

Let's clarify which version you have. The older version has the solenoid mounted externally on the right side of the motor; it has one wire and it operates external linkages to stop the engine. The newer version solenoid bolts to the front of the engine; it has two wires and no visible external linkage. These two versions operate completely different. The old version is powered briefly to stop the engine. The new version must be powered continuously to allow the engine to run. I assumed you had the old version but you never confirmed that or stated the build year. Without knowing which version you have we are spinning our wheels. If you have the older version you need the Kioti timer relay and a generic relay won't work.

 

[kantuckid]

Thanks for kicking in.
I thought I was making clear that my tractor has the older style shutoff-which has the single blue wire and external linkage as I described in the original post. please read it again. Per my dealer where I've bought parts- the larger thermal relay (called the pre-heat relay) is glow plug related. the smaller ones I discuss are for starter & engine stop relay based on other threads and my dealer too.
If you are correct that I need the larger (Kioti only and retails for~ $50 thereabouts) relay then I'm confused and the dealer is wrong in what I was told. The ones on my tractor are IMO #28(small)#29 (large) and #30 (small) on the pictures showing in other threads here, with two smaller relays on the firewall either side of the larger relay you say I need.

 

[ritcheyvs]

I think this shows the correct schematic for your tractor. The DK40 schematic should be the same as the 45.

Scroll all the way to the end for the schematic. The stop circuit is is in the bottom left of the drawing. You will see the timer relay has seven electrical connections; I believe this is a short pigtail wire bundle with a connector at the end (NOT like a typical plug-in relay cube).

This image (zoom in) from the MIE online parts manual shows the timer relay (#8). I can't tell exactly where it is but it's not on the "firewall" with the glow relays. It may be on the side of the cowl or maybe behind the instrument panel.

As an aside, the service manuals for the old DK models were poor but manuals for SE (aka EX) models and later are quite good. If you are looking at an EX manual the stop solenoid and wiring are all wrong for your old DK.

 

[k0ua]

I think this shows the correct schematic for your tractor. The DK40 schematic should be the same as the 45.

Scroll all the way to the end for the schematic. The stop circuit is is in the bottom left of the drawing. You will see the timer relay has seven electrical connections; I believe this is a short pigtail wire bundle with a connector at the end (NOT like a typical plug-in relay cube).

This image (zoom in) from the MIE online parts manual shows the timer relay (#8). I can't tell exactly where it is but it's not on the "firewall" with the glow relays. It may be on the side of the cowl or maybe behind the instrument panel.

As an aside, the service manuals for the old DK models were poor but manuals for SE (aka EX) models and later are quite good. If you are looking at an EX manual the stop solenoid and wiring are all wrong for your old DK.

Yeah, that is a much more sophisticated unit than the simple relays on our later SE models. That is a relay and timer in one module.

 

[k0ua]

I don't know if this will help any, but here is a snip of the old style DK showing the electrical for the timer relay and stop solenoid.