Ditching job

[Hay Dude]

3 days on a dozer is a pretty big deal. That’s at least a grand a day.

That JD 450 I rented 2 weeks ago was only $285/day.
No way we can use a dozer in the ditches, it would tear them up too much.

This task has to be done surgically and with care to the property.
Cant be a cowboy on a D-9 on this one.

Im only in bidding phase of it now and looking for suggestions. I appreciate everyone’s help so far. Well, almost everyone…. Lol

 

[dodge man]

In my experience a larger excavator will not tear the ground up any deeper, the tracks are wider so no more ground pressure. They are bigger so obviously the area will be bigger. I’ve seen the large off road dump trucks leave ruts that are 3 feet deep, so that’s a problem. Your tractor running over the ground over and over a few hundred times is also going to damage the ground.

I’d say get the equipment you think you need to complete the job and fix the damage to the ground afterwards. To big, to small? Like most things there is no right or wrong answer.

 

[Hay Dude]

Thinking about renting ground mats

 

[workinonit]

How are your grading skills with a hoe running a cleanout bucket. Are you planning on using a laser system? Grades are tough to get right from the side. Much easier if you can straddle.

 

[Hay Dude]

How are your grading skills with a hoe running a cleanout bucket. Are you planning on using a laser system? Grades are tough to get right from the side. Much easier if you can straddle.

Pretty good. I grew up on machinery. Presently I farm, do custom mowing and some land clearing & snow plowing. Seems like i spend half my life in an operators seat, but its always something different.
If I had to straddle, I’d be in the ditch. I cant find a mini with a wrist.
Spoke with customer later last night and we may be expanding into a crawler carrier for the ditch work and maybe shuttling some rocks out to their dam. They have a river dammed-up and a mill race that needs some attention, too.
Should be an interesting job, IF I get it.

 

[workinonit]

Yea, if you straddle you would need a large machine. I have a Kumatsu PC 220 LC. Something like that works well for the width your talking about.

 

[Hay Dude]

Man that would be a huge machine. Ditches are 15’ wide. Or maybe Im misunderstanding.

 

[workinonit]

What I saw in the pics, those look more like swales than ditches. My machine has a 12' span whic is obviously to narrow if you have to have 15' but the ground I see in the pics I could definartely straddle ditch with my machine. It might run down in the edges a bit but it would work. A winged bucket would be needed as well. But you said a heavy machine won't stand up so it's really not a discussion.

 

[LD1]

Agree.

2 miles, 15 feet wide, 3 feet deep in the center. I'll calculate that as having a constant slope that would yield an average of 18" depth. That is 8,800 cubic yards of material or 587 full to the top 15 yard dump truck loads. That would take a long time with a loader.

I may be bad off on what I am thinking in my head, without being able to see it though. Also, it's easy to play devil's advocate behind a computer screen . I'm not trying to pee in anyone's Cheerios.

Maybe I'm reading this all wrong. I'm thinking you are creating the ditches. If you are just cleaning them out, what I just did will not be even close to accurate, and you are probably on track with using an X but I would get a big one. It's still a lot of material.

I think the math is a little off, and certainly not reflective of the pictures.

I read it as a mile, give or take, of total ditch. He said double if you count both sides.

Maybe I am wrong.....But I took that to only mean a mile total. And with a small 3 ton machine with limited reach.....he was figuring on doing one side.....from bottom of ditch up to grade (half the 15' width of the ditch) then coming down the other side. So either 1 mile of 15' wide ditch.....or two miles of 1/2 a ditch width.

So that said.....ditch is like a triangle.....15' x 3'. and 5280' long. So Im only coming up with 4400yds of material.

BUT.......the ditches are already there. This isnt a new ditch cut into flat ground....rather its reshaping of existing ditches. So alot of the material is already moved. Without measuring it....Id venture a guess that half the material is already removed.

So I think that puts it ~2200 or so yards still needing moved. Still alot for sure.

And I agree that transporting material 1/2 mile is gonna be the slow down. Keep the mini moving....pile dirt.....the tractor is more than capable of loading a full scoop from piles and doesnt need to be spoon-fed by the mini operator.

I have no answers for moving the dirt faster given the conditions. Maybe get the ditches mucked out then wait on dry conditions to load and use dump trucks?

 

[Hay Dude]

Total ditch length approximately 1/2 mile.
Figured on working both sides, total of one mile, with small machine to minimize ground compaction

 

[LD1]

Total ditch length approximately 1/2 mile.
Figured on working both sides, total of one mile, with small machine to minimize ground compaction

Just bid a good mile or more of ditching, double it if you count both sides

This is the info we were going off of.

If the ditch is only 2640' total length.....15' wide, and 3' deep that is only a total of 2200yds of material......IF there werent already existing ditches.

So I'd say based on pics....that you are looking at excavating an approximate 1000yds of material total. This sounds way more plausible with a mini and a tractor with high capacity bucket.

With a ditching bucket a mini should be good for 25-30 yards per hour of material removal. So a good 40hr week give or take a bit.

From experience....using a mini to load a trailer, loader bucket, or anything other than just dumping in a pile is gonna slow you down big time. Gotta be slow, deliberate, and precise with your movements to not be banging into other equipment.

If the tractor can haul 2yds at a time and you can get 5 trips an hour.......thats 3 weeks of tractoring to build the berm. Still alot of seat time, but more doable without living on site for the next 3 months only shuttling dirt.

Get the mini in and out in a week. The tractor will quickly fall behind. But get the mini done and cut loose then use tractor for however long needed to shuttle the dirt.

 

[LittleBittyBigJohn]

I think the math is a little off, and certainly not reflective of the pictures.

I read it as a mile, give or take, of total ditch. He said double if you count both sides.

Maybe I am wrong.....But I took that to only mean a mile total. And with a small 3 ton machine with limited reach.....he was figuring on doing one side.....from bottom of ditch up to grade (half the 15' width of the ditch) then coming down the other side. So either 1 mile of 15' wide ditch.....or two miles of 1/2 a ditch width.

So that said.....ditch is like a triangle.....15' x 3'. and 5280' long. So Im only coming up with 4400yds of material.

BUT.......the ditches are already there. This isnt a new ditch cut into flat ground....rather its reshaping of existing ditches. So alot of the material is already moved. Without measuring it....Id venture a guess that half the material is already removed.

So I think that puts it ~2200 or so yards still needing moved. Still alot for sure.

And I agree that transporting material 1/2 mile is gonna be the slow down. Keep the mini moving....pile dirt.....the tractor is more than capable of loading a full scoop from piles and doesnt need to be spoon-fed by the mini operator.

I have no answers for moving the dirt faster given the conditions. Maybe get the ditches mucked out then wait on dry conditions to load and use dump trucks?

Yeah, I realized I read the assignment wrong and was adding undue confusion and difficulty. Sometimes I get a little too excited as a keyboard warrior... It's easy to say how I would do it but I don't have any skin in the game.

 

[Hay Dude]

Yeah, I realized I read the assignment wrong and was adding undue confusion and difficulty. Sometimes I get a little too excited as a keyboard warrior... It's easy to say how I would do it but I don't have any skin in the game.

It’s understandable
These are smaller ditches on private, very delicate historic ground.
Gotta tread lightly. Owner is a continuous customer and I farm their property.
There’s a time & place for the big axe and a time & place for a scalpel.

 

[Snobdds]

A scalpel requires a lot more money to avoid all the good tissue around the wound.

Is the owner prepared to pay for scalpel type work?

 

[4570Man]

Smaller equipment doesn’t always equal a better job. A big trackhoe could make one pass up the center, clean the whole 15 foot and then throw the dirt way to the side where the little trackhoe is going to be tracking all over the place to get the same job done. A bigger trackhoe has bigger tracks so the ground contact isn’t much harder. Moving around hurts you more than anything.

 

[Hay Dude]

A scalpel requires a lot more money to avoid all the good tissue around the wound.

Is the owner prepared to pay for scalpel type work?

Yes it shouldn’t be in issue. They are super wealthy like you
They dont want speed and size.
Careful and easy does it

 

[Snobdds]

Yes it shouldn’t be in issue. They are super wealthy like you
They dont want speed and size.
Careful and easy does it

I have a lot of wealthy friends that squeak when they walk. Opening up their wallet about kills them.

 

[kevin37b]

You are the expert on everything . What is the big deal . Get a hoe and start winging that **** out in the field

 

[dodge man]

Smaller equipment doesn’t always equal a better job. A big trackhoe could make one pass up the center, clean the whole 15 foot and then throw the dirt way to the side where the little trackhoe is going to be tracking all over the place to get the same job done. A bigger trackhoe has bigger tracks so the ground contact isn’t much harder. Moving around hurts you more than anything.

This is what I’ve been saying. A big track hoe LOOKS like it will do more damage but it won’t. It will straddle the ditch and not be turning a lot. The hoe won’t tear things up near as much as moving the dirt away with your tractor.

 

[dodge man]

I’ve seen mats used and they do work. When I’ve seen the used though it was for very heavy equipment, like cranes used to install wind turbines, or to get something like a bull dozer across a highway.