Oil & Fuel Dirty oil

[dodge man]

I'm not a big fan of trying to flush out an engine. The only way I'd do that if it was so bad you were looking at having to pull the engine and rebuild it becasue it was so gunked up.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

We had the same thing with our Ford big block engine in the gas 429 engine. It took like three days for the crud in the old filter to drain out it was so bad. Before draining the old oil I did run a can of Sea Foam for about 20 minutes at idle after it was hot but one could skip that step.

We also went to Rotella Synthetic 5W-40 motor oil so being diesel rated it started removing the black deposits and the new oil was totally black after 50 miles. We used a high end Fram filter from WM 50 miles after the initial oil change and it cleared back up for a couple hundred miles and then repeated the process. Now a couple years later it is still clear with about a total of 500 miles on the new Rotella and third filter.

Try a couple filter only and top off cycles and let us know if it clears up.

I did not know a new filter would clean up black oil before this experience.

 

[Ace3]

Every Diesel engine I have had in boats, trucks, excavator, and tractors has had black oil in it. There is nothing wrong with the oil. It's just what happens to the oil in a Diesel engine.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

With unknown previous maintenance, if this was my tractor, I'd change at least the oil filter at 50 hours. Who am I kidding, I'd change the oil too, or I wouldn't sleep properly (just my OCD , and :2cents.

Rgds, D.

Short changing is a good idea with any engine without service records. I have had some luck clearing up black oil by change filter only. As noted black oil may not be a big deal. If you change oil a a few hours later it is black then you have an engine containing crud not coming out with the oil.

Can I use Sea Foam in my diesel engine crankcase too? | Sea Foam Sales Company

Sea Foam is something that I like to use in both gas and diesel crank cases per instructed on the container.

 

[art]

Kubota engines have been some of the cleanest we have worked with and normally they go twenty to thirty without turning with normal maint. and good oils. Most tractor companies of that vintage if you were to be using after-market oil should be the equivelent to Shell's Rimula oil. Rotella is a lower spec oil that was not designed for ag or tractor use but trucks and cars.

 

[cadale]

I started this thread several weeks ago. A couple weeks ago I contacted our local Cat Dealer as I had heard that they did oil sampling, and for a little over $30 was given two sample bottles and some clear tubing to fil them with. It turns out that using the tubing to extract a sample is not easy. I tried sticking the tubing into the crankcase, closing off the top with a finger and pulling the tubing with oil back out, then blowing the oil into a cup. Very slow. Tried sucking it out, also slow. I could not get a sample from the hydraulic oil at all, so I pulled the drain plug and gathered a sample into a container (very clean can). That was quicker.

The results came back in 24 hours. Amazing. Very cheap and detailed and fast. The lab measured various metals in the oil, such as copper, chromium, nickel, tin, etc. that are apparently indicative of engine wear such as piston rings , bearings, etc. Other items measured were fuel content, antifreeze content, nitration, oxidation, soot, acidity, viscosity, more. One of the few values that were 0 was soot. I was told that both engine and hyd fluid were normal and that continued sampling and testing would be helpful in monitoring wear as I now have a baseline.

I intend to change the hydraulic oil filter but reuse the oil. Unfortunately it appears that in order to change the filter (original one) I have to drain the fluid, all 11 gallons of it or so. Rats.

Thanx again for all the comments.

 

[Deano]

I intend to change the hydraulic oil filter but reuse the oil. Unfortunately it appears that in order to change the filter (original one) I have to drain the fluid, all 11 gallons of it or so. Rats.

Thanx again for all the comments.

Use a vacuum and have an assistant hold nozzle on the fill point and change the filter...You will lose VERY little!

 

[dlay]

Kubota engines have been some of the cleanest we have worked with and normally they go twenty to thirty without turning with normal maint. and good oils. Most tractor companies of that vintage if you were to be using after-market oil should be the equivelent to Shell's Rimula oil. Rotella is a lower spec oil that was not designed for ag or tractor use but trucks and cars.

I put rotella in my m7040, dealer said was fine, when I sold JD construction equipment, I asked a tech at the factory what oils were ok. He said that any good oil for diesel engines that met spec was good. He mentioned rotella as a good one to use, but said to be sure and use jd hydraulic oil as it was speced for their clutches and seals. Oil in a diesel engine turns black very quick and is ok..

 

[3930dave]

I started this thread several weeks ago. A couple weeks ago I contacted our local Cat Dealer as I had heard that they did oil sampling, and for a little over $30 was given two sample bottles and some clear tubing to fil them with. It turns out that using the tubing to extract a sample is not easy. I tried sticking the tubing into the crankcase, closing off the top with a finger and pulling the tubing with oil back out, then blowing the oil into a cup. Very slow. Tried sucking it out, also slow. I could not get a sample from the hydraulic oil at all, so I pulled the drain plug and gathered a sample into a container (very clean can). That was quicker.

The results came back in 24 hours. Amazing. Very cheap and detailed and fast. The lab measured various metals in the oil, such as copper, chromium, nickel, tin, etc. that are apparently indicative of engine wear such as piston rings , bearings, etc. Other items measured were fuel content, antifreeze content, nitration, oxidation, soot, acidity, viscosity, more. One of the few values that were 0 was soot. I was told that both engine and hyd fluid were normal and that continued sampling and testing would be helpful in monitoring wear as I now have a baseline.

I intend to change the hydraulic oil filter but reuse the oil. Unfortunately it appears that in order to change the filter (original one) I have to drain the fluid, all 11 gallons of it or so. Rats.

Thanx again for all the comments.

How many total hours are on your tractor Cadale ?

If your hydraulic fluid is original, you might want to check what the factory change interval states.

Used Oil Analysis can be a good way to test for contamination, and depending how the tests are done, may tell you some general things about how the fluid is aging (ex. Acid buildup, viscosity breakdown). I'm no expert, but IMO, I don't think that most Used Oil testing is going to tell you how all the additives in the hydraulic fluid are standing up - esp. if you do not have an extensive analysis of that particular UNused hydraulic fluid to compare to.

Used Oil Analysis can be a useful tool, but if it was a machine that I was planning on having for a while, I'd make sure to observe the factory change interval for the hydraulic fluid, even if the analysis was coming back with no alarm bells attached.

Just my :2cents:. Enjoy the new tractor !

Rgds, D.

 

[cadale]

Thanx Deano, I would never have thought of that.

 

[cadale]

About 840 hours.
I think Kubota says to change the oil at about 200 hours, and I doubt its been changed since the filter color is same color as engine, gray, and a service tech said that indicates its original.

So maybe I should disregard the oil appearance and report and change it.......some of the fluid drive repairs seem to be extremely expensive, but it sure works nicely for me.

Dale

 

[3930dave]

About 840 hours.
I think Kubota says to change the oil at about 200 hours, and I doubt its been changed since the filter color is same color as engine, gray, and a service tech said that indicates its original.

So maybe I should disregard the oil appearance and report and change it.......some of the fluid drive repairs seem to be extremely expensive, but it sure works nicely for me.

Dale

As I've probably posted before...... when I first started asking about tractor maintenance (in the real world, not just on here ) an old dealer mechanic's comment will always stick with me "Yep, Antifreeze and Hydraulic oil are two things on a tractor that often get neglected, for quite a long time".

Aside from cost, people shy away from dealing with the volume of fluid involved. The deceptive thing with Hydraulic fluid (as compared to motor oil) is that it will usually look "good" for a very long time.

Takes a bit of reading on here, but you'll often see the comment that Hyd fluid that is changed at the Manuf service point (hours) still looks fine. These people are doing the scheduled maintenance, because they understand the potential later costs and downtime involved with not doing it - they make the comment about the good "looking" used Hyd fluid as a genuine observation, more so than a complaint. OK, maybe some are complaining :laughing: .

I don't have an HST, but even so, I wanted to make sure that I had fresh hydraulic fluid in my old 3930. Once I did finally change it, I wished I had done it sooner. The Hyd oil that looked pristine on the stick, definitely looked less so, once drained. My guess is that even with a filter, the housing is designed to separate some water and have it settle in the sump. Once you dump all the oil out, the resulting mix of this older oil was way less pretty than it first appeared.

The way I look at it is even without causing a near term major mechanical problem, Hyd fluid that is well past it's due date is not keeping up with preserving and conditioning seals in the system. Before you end up with mechanical problems, you could end up with Hyd leaks that may not have happened if the fluid had been changed on Sched.

I shopped around and ended up with a Chevron fluid at a good price that was appropriate for my 3930. Won't help you, but I found it at Partsource here in Canada - just mentioning that to note that sometimes deals on Ag related stuff can be found with suppliers that you don't first think of for Ag. Or.... maybe just my thinking is too limited at times......

For any used equipment that I buy, I always try and get all the fluids changed out fairly quickly. Most equipment is not that well maintained in terms of fluids, so it is time and money well spent on anything that you plan to have for a while. The worst thing that can happen is that you change out a fluid that is not that old - In the overall cost of a tractor, I can live with that.... :thumbsup:

Not my style, but even if you turned around and sell it before long, the bills for all that maintenance should be a good selling feature.

Rgds, D.

 

[stuckmotor]

Hello

I just joined, after occasionally lurking here the past several years. After gained experience with old 50s tractors the past four years, I recently upgraded to a Kubota L3130, with FEL.

The engine oil was filthy, and the markings on the filter said 2009, so its been a while since any maintenance was done, but it runs well. Even after changing the oil and filter, the oil is still black.

Should I run it a few hours and replace the oil, again?

Also, there is a black knob atop the joystick which can slide into two positions-anyone know what its does? The control is an L2213A.

thanx

Dale

You're lucky. The filter on my second hand tractor says 2006.

 

[cadale]

D

Thank you. I will change the hydraulic fluid, for the reasons that you articulated and which I would not have thought of.

So no need to use Kubota fluid? I have looked at a few other brands several weeks ago and found the ratings and descriptions a mite confusing. The Kubota seemed expensive. Can you recommend a rating that would work?

Dale

 

[3930dave]

D

Thank you. I will change the hydraulic fluid, for the reasons that you articulated and which I would not have thought of.

So no need to use Kubota fluid? I have looked at a few other brands several weeks ago and found the ratings and descriptions a mite confusing. The Kubota seemed expensive. Can you recommend a rating that would work?

Dale

You're welcome Dale, always glad to share data on here !

Your post reminded me of what I went through just a few years back, once I owned a tractor, as opposed to just hours spent driving tractors on friend's farms. Present day, I'm pretty maintenance aware, when it comes to cars and light trucks.

Even so, the "Geez, that's a lot of hydraulic fluid, do I have to change all that right away ?" reaction is pretty natural. :confused3:

I will tell you the thinking I used when selecting fluid for my 3930, but as I don't know Kubotas at all, I'll start with these suggestions:

Gathering Data requirements:

1) Get a hold of the original Operating and/or basic Service manuals, if you don't have them already. You need to know the original Kubota Hydraulic spec required for your specific model. Don't just call a dealer and ask "What do I use in Model _______". I'll get back to this point.

2) Start a thread in the Oil Fuel Lubricants section on here titled something like "Kubota L3130 - looking for recommendations on Hydraulic fluid". Briefly summarize your tractor (bought used, 8xx hours, looks original in terms of fluid/filter, a bit confused about specs.....), and ask for recommendations.

How I approached my 3930:

1) Manufacturer's will start with a spec for fluid. Let's call it xyz-A. As time moves on, that spec will get updated, for various reasons. (Progresses through -B, -C, -D........). I'm just making up a generic example here, but you get the idea..... (Typically retroactive, so a "-D" can be used for an older "-B" application, but not the other way around).

An Ag dealer will only stock the latest spec fluid, again, for a few reasons. Should be good fluid, but spendy. When you will call a dealer, they will typically say "use xyz-D". If your older tractor was originally spec'd for -B fluid, then IMO, any fluid that is rated to at least the -B level is worth considering.

2) The Certification Game - Kubota factory fluid will be certified to meet their OEM Hydraulic fluid spec. That certification process costs money, so for any after-market supplier of fluid to say "Meets or Exceeds UDT requirements", that will cost Exxon or whoever quite a bit, to put it on their label.

(To be totally clear, I have no idea if UDT is what you need, pls verify).

I don't discount the certification process involved - I know it's value in another technical world. The challenge for all of us is making the right value decision, when paying for fluid.

If I bought a brand new $200,000 tractor, I'd probably buy the OEM's Certified fluid - I'd have the cash flow to make that decision (otherwise I wouldn't be buying the tractor), and would want to ensure warranty compliance.

3) Certified vs. Recommended Fluids:

OK, so how to sort out value in the fluid aftermarket...... Well, first of all, I won't look at Joe Schmos HD Highdrawlic discount fluid, so will stick with the majors.

There are respectable Universal (meaning covers more than one manufacturer's application) Hydraulic Ag fluids out there. After doing a pile of reading on here and elsewhere, I settled on Chevron 1000 THF. Looking at the datasheet I pulled at the time, it says:

Chevron 1000 THF is recommended for use:
as a multifunctional fluid in all types of farm tractors
and equipment.
in any application which calls for the following OEM
lubricant specifications:
.
.
.
.
Kubota UDT
.
.


Again, I don't know if UDT capable is what you need - pls verify. My emphasis on "recommended".

I wanted to save myself some money on fluid, but didn't want to buy garbage. If you think about it, liability wise, "Recommended for...." is a whole lot different than "Meets or Exceeds spec XYZ". Anybody can say "Recommended for" on a product, w/o really guaranteeing any mimimum level of performance.

So, my selection process boiled down to.....

1) Do I want to pay for the Certified Ford NH spec fluid from the dealer - No.

2) Can I live with the "Sootable fer Ford NuHawland applictions" claim on Joe Schmos HD Highdrawlic discount fluid - No.

3) Can I (and my wallet) live with "Recommended for Ford NH ______ applications" statement on a Chevron product that I've searched around the net for problem reports on and found none - Sure, works for me.

I'm not saying that all aftermarket off-brand Hyd fluid suppliers are junk, just that the elimination process I went through above was what I could justify to myself and my wallet.

View attachment Chevron_1000THF.pdf

I pulled that datasheet in 2011, you might want to spend the time digging through the Chevron site to see if there is an update to that. There is another file I have that is worth a quick read, I'll PM that next.

Hope this helps you select an appropriate fluid - let us know what you settle on, and what the fluid you dump looked like - that feedback will help a future Kubota owner !

Rgds, D.

 

[cadale]

Well, I changed the out the hydraulic fluid and am happy I did it, but it was more of a chore then I expected. I ended up with about 10 gallons of fluid, and mopped up another 1 or 2 gallons from the floor. I also drained the front gearbox and replaced the fluid. It took a long time to get the oil in the front gearbox, as according to the dealer rep it needs to migrate past some bearings. I found that driving back and forth slowly helped the oil distribute (after I assumed enough oil was in both axle ends). I found it difficult to remove the HST transmission oil filter, even though I could get decent leverage using an oil filter wrench. The wrench just bent, so I bought a newer one (old one from 1960s), and it still bent, so I hooked a rope to the end of the lever and ran the rope end over the boxscraper with a pail of 5 gal UDT fluid as a weight, and then grabbed my large pliers and twisted on the filter and it gave way. Altogether I spent about 4 hours just replacing the fluids. I went with UDT as the local dealer said that would suffice.

Many thanks to 3930Dave who posted much useful info and sent me more offline. I probably would not have changed it out but for his advice. The oil did not look as clean when in a drain bucket compared to the dipstick, being a dark brown rather than clear, but it also did not look the sludgy black that the engine oil did.

I recycled the engine and hydraulic oil at the Kubota dealer, where it all went into the same tank, yet my local auto parts dealer does not accept hydraulic oil. I wonder why not?

I also tightened a hose clamp (rubber hose to metal tube hydraulic connection) at the base of the radiator and under the battery (L3130) which was leaking and where I spent an extra half hour trying to tighten the wrong end due I guess to aging eyeballs and a dose of stupidity. Anyway, obviously this is not a high pressure connection, so does anyone know the hydraulic fluid path used in cooling the transmission? I assume a separate pump would not be in order, so is a portion of the pressurized fluid reduced in pressure and sent to the radiator?

Again, Thanks

Dale

 

[3930dave]

Dale - It's a lot of fluid to deal with, but it sure feels good to have that changed out, I'm sure.

I don't know the CA regs/practices, but I suspect it is just a logistics issue for the auto place. Ag dealers are used to dealing with 10-20+ gallons of used fluid coming out of one vehicle, automotive guys not so much. Esp. the chain retail auto shops, they don't want to create a situation where they clutter up a shop with a backlog of used oil containers, waiting for an unexpected large load of oil to be picked up for recycling.

We've already defined my non-knowledge of HST , so I won't guess on the dedicated-pump-vs-regulator issue.

Somebody on here will likely know. If not, try sending a PM to brain55. As a pro, he seems to work on a lot of Construction equipment these days, but may have done his share of Ag too. It sounds like he's gotten even busier than normal lately, so don't be surprised if you don't hear from him for a bit.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/construction-equipment/271126-busy-weekend.html

Rgds, D.

 

[David Devuono]

Black Oil is easier to read on the dipstick The oil in my 40 year old Massey 135 is always clean. Might have something to do with the quart of new oil required daily when working it hard. (Leaks, does not smoke)

 

[theboman]

I'm not sure it's been addressed, but diesels are dirty... new oil gets dirty looking very fast... just change as schedule suggests or even more often. My F250 was that way and my B7500 is that way.