Oil & Fuel Diesel fuel additives are so inexpensive to use.

[AxleHub]

You might add some voodoo juice to your daily breakfast too. Who knows it might help.

Lol. Back in 1980 some people thought computers were voodoo . . Worked out good for me.

The idea of locating something called a mall 7 miles outside of town was voodoo too . . Worked out good for a number of people.

Voodoo is a term too often used by those without an open mind or a willingness to learn. Too often they want everyone to "prove it to me". As a result they get left behind thinking everyone else is wrong.

 

[holeycow]

Hmmmmm. Pass legislation to alter the characteristics of fuel so that other petroleum and chemical products are required to bring the fuel up to snuff so that it can actually provide that which was taken away...sounds like the food and food-supplement industry.

"Full Winter" fuel here does not gel, but it is highly recommended by the local fuel guys to increase winter lubricity with an additive. Summer biodiesel blend may require an additive to prevent algae ( imagine!). It is not recommended to run biodiesel in our winters.

I have just used up my summer tank (biodiesel blend) and filled a tractor out of the winter tank (pure dinosaur stuff). The tractor runs noticeably better on the winter fuel. Not the first time I have noticed that.

 

[IslandTractor]

Voodoo is a term too often used by those without an open mind or a willingness to learn. Too often they want everyone to "prove it to me". As a result they get left behind thinking everyone else is wrong.

Being ahead of the curve on a new trend is one thing. Failing to look back to insure that the new trend is something more solidly based in science and engineering than the latest hula hoop craze is another. In God we trust, all others must show data.

It does indeed take a while to figure out whether the latest greatest is a fad or not. What ends the fads is ultimately the lack of data to support the new idea. Lord knows there are many diet fads that purported to have a scientific theory and all manner of anecdotal evidence to support them but which later were found to be bunk when controlled studies were done. I really don't know if diesel additives extend the useful life of an engine but I do know that nobody seems to be able to come up with good controlled engineering outcomes data to back up claims that have been made for many years by the additive sellers. And, one would think that the engineers at both fuel companies and engine manufacturers would have had plenty of time both to evaluate these claims and to incorporate recommendations to their companies. I don't see any trend in engine companies making a big deal about the benefits of additives nor do I see the major fuel companies marketing new products that incorporate such additives. The silence is deafening. I suspect it is because they have indeed seen sufficient data to realize the additives (not talking about water absorbents or winterizing agents) are not what they are cracked up to be by the additive marketers.

 

[AxleHub]

Island,

I remember back in the early 1970s when the very 1st fine wire sparkplugs were introduced. Champion mafe them and they were gold tipped. Lots of people claimed if they wete so good the car and motorcycle makers would put them in their product at manufacture. Didn't happen. Yet when you'd install them in an engine . . they worked so well that you had to adjust the idle lower because they were so efficient.

Your rational that manufacturers of fuel would use adfitives if it was such an improvement and benefit is that same faulty logic. You lump all additive products and manufacturers into the same group . . and of course that logic produces a murky and clouded negative answer for your purposes.

You claim any and all additives are voodoo yet you have no empirical proof to make such a claim. On the other hand, there ate many 1st person witnessed accounts of seeing differences in use and performance when using certain additives. Your claim there is no proof is based purely on a lack of published testing by ?????

Meanwhile 1st person observation is not acceptable in your mind. That just isn't logical evaluation or reasoning imo.

Even the concept of declaring all additives from all manufacturers as "voodoo" . . in itself . . is claiming that anyone who uses additives is unaware. And again what is your research to support such conclusions ? And just how many products of how many manufacturers are you lumping into the "voodoo grouping" ?

 

[jaydee325]

Voodoo is a term too often used by those without an open mind or a willingness to learn. Too often they want everyone to "prove it to me". As a result they get left behind thinking everyone else is wrong.

I have an open mind and a willingness to learn. So, I've done research.

I've not discovered any data that would support the claims that fuel additives provide any benefit. None of the manufacturers to my knowledge endorse the use of any additives. That is because any testing they do is with the prevailing fuel standards.

I also work in a large industrial complex that has several stationary and portable diesel driven equipment. Some that sits in standby for periods of time. Our fuel vendor recommends no additives for the way we operate and store our equipment. The fuel they deliver is of seasonal blend. They also recommend that diesel fuel not be stored for more than 6 months at a time. We address that by doing fuel analysis at an appropriate interval.

I've never experienced a diesel fuel related issue on my own diesel tractor. I've operated it down to -10 deg F with no issues and it is stored in an unheated barn. I make sure I time my fuel purchases to have the correct seasonal blend on hand and in the tractor. Supply is from a local station that has a high turnover.

It is absolutely anyones prerogative to use additives if they feel it is providing benefit. I simply don't see benefit.

 

[IslandTractor]

Island,

I remember back in the early 1970s when the very 1st fine wire sparkplugs were introduced. Champion mafe them and they were gold tipped. Lots of people claimed if they wete so good the car and motorcycle makers would put them in their product at manufacture. Didn't happen. Yet when you'd install them in an engine . . they worked so well that you had to adjust the idle lower because they were so efficient.

Your rational that manufacturers of fuel would use adfitives if it was such an improvement and benefit is that same faulty logic. You lump all additive products and manufacturers into the same group . . and of course that logic produces a murky and clouded negative answer for your purposes.

You claim any and all additives are voodoo yet you have no empirical proof to make such a claim. On the other hand, there ate many 1st person witnessed accounts of seeing differences in use and performance when using certain additives. Your claim there is no proof is based purely on a lack of published testing by ?????

Meanwhile 1st person observation is not acceptable in your mind. That just isn't logical evaluation or reasoning imo.

Even the concept of declaring all additives from all manufacturers as "voodoo" . . in itself . . is claiming that anyone who uses additives is unaware. And again what is your research to support such conclusions ? And just how many products of how many manufacturers are you lumping into the "voodoo grouping" ?

Axle I think our problem is that you value first hand experience more and I value "objective" data more. I don't value anecdotal evidence because it is so very often biased. If you spend ten bucks on something you will be biased to believe it is going to work (otherwise you were a fool for buying it, right?). We know in medicine that the so called placebo effect is VERY powerful in some situations. I'd argue that a lot of what you call first person observations are quite biased. Of course we all use those first person observations in our daily lives so I'm in no way saying that there is objective data to answer every question we face but there are situations where it is appropriate to reevaluate our presumptions and look for better evidence. What I remain skeptical about is that none of the big manufacturers or fuel suppliers seem to buy into these diesel additives (again I am excluding water absorbents, biocides and winterizing agents for special cases when appropriate). If the US Army doesn't think they need to add PowerJuice to the fuel of our Bradleys and Hummers as they go into battle, I'm going to need more than just "well, Joe put it in his truck and said it worked" types of evidence to convince me. With all the billions of dollars tied up in diesel engines and fuel etc, it just would be stunning if there was a real honest additive that would make even a 2% improvement that had not already been incorporated into the mainstream a decade or two after introduction to the market. On the other hand, there are still people who think that magnets will increase MPG in their cars despite the lack of evidence. I choose to follow the data rather than first person experience in matters like this.

 

[coobie]

I have an open mind and a willingness to learn. So, I've done research.

I've not discovered any data that would support the claims that fuel additives provide any benefit. None of the manufacturers to my knowledge endorse the use of any additives. That is because any testing they do is with the prevailing fuel standards.

I also work in a large industrial complex that has several stationary and portable diesel driven equipment. Some that sits in standby for periods of time. Our fuel vendor recommends no additives for the way we operate and store our equipment. The fuel they deliver is of seasonal blend. They also recommend that diesel fuel not be stored for more than 6 months at a time. We address that by doing fuel analysis at an appropriate interval.

I've never experienced a diesel fuel related issue on my own diesel tractor. I've operated it down to -10 deg F with no issues and it is stored in an unheated barn. I make sure I time my fuel purchases to have the correct seasonal blend on hand and in the tractor. Supply is from a local station that has a high turnover.

It is absolutely anyones prerogative to use additives if they feel it is providing benefit. I simply don't see benefit.

Worked for the local power company here in michigan as a electric lineman for 38 plus years before retiring.I can tell you our diesel engine buckets trucks did have gelling issues without adding additives(such as power service) to the fuel.Company who supplied the fuel stated they had pre treated the fuel against gelling.Been stranded a few times along the roadway in the middle of winter -20 below waiting for a mechanic.Some believe in additives some do not.I am a believer and will continue to use them.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

Worked for the local power company here in michigan as a electric lineman for 38 plus years before retiring.I can tell you our diesel engine buckets trucks did have gelling issues without adding additives(such as power service) to the fuel.Company who supplied the fuel stated they had pre treated the fuel against gelling.Been stranded a few times along the roadway in the middle of winter -20 below waiting for a mechanic.Some believe in additives some do not.I am a believer and will continue to use them.

What "I" believe is, you didn't have WINTER fuel in them, I've been all over the UP in the winter and never had gelling problems even once... That's as cold as it get's in Michigan, and I bought all my fuel at gas stations, like Wesco ect...

SR

 

[coobie]

What "I" believe is, you didn't have WINTER fuel in them, I've been all over the UP in the winter and never had gelling problems even once... That's as cold as it get's in Michigan, and I bought all my fuel at gas stations, like Wesco ect...

SR

You are entitled to believe what you want,you seem to be quite a travel bug,laffin.In the Jan/Feb months of the year I do believe they had winter additives in the fuel.My fingers are crossed,hope your good non gelling fuel fortunes continue.

 

[CalG]

We might be further ahead to divide the conversation into "Performance enhancing Diesel fuel additives" to avoid emotional out bursts over anti gelling and anti-microbial additives that are time and situation dependent.

One who benefits from the addition of an anti-gelling additive likely does not positively know if the fuel had been treated for winterization prior to their use. Like wise, the need for anti-microbials are for all practical records, a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. In both cases, when you help on either situation, you need help!

As to the "performance enhancing" compounds.... ehh. ..... show me the data! ;-)

 

[IslandTractor]

We might be further ahead to divide the conversation into "Performance enhancing Diesel fuel additives" to avoid emotional out bursts over anti gelling and anti-microbial additives that are time and situation dependent.

One who benefits from the addition of an anti-gelling additive likely does not positively know if the fuel had been treated for winterization prior to their use. Like wise, the need for anti-microbials are for all practical records, a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. In both cases, when you help on either situation, you need help!

As to the "performance enhancing" compounds.... ehh. ..... show me the data! ;-)

I agree and have tried to keep those anti gelling and biocides out of the argument. I understand why rswyan wants anti gelling in the truck he stakes his life on in wintertime and I know what algae can do to diesel fuel in boats in warm climates.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

You are entitled to believe what you want,you seem to be quite a travel bug,laffin.In the Jan/Feb months of the year I do believe they had winter additives in the fuel.My fingers are crossed,hope your good non gelling fuel fortunes continue.

Actually you would be accurate about that... at least compared to many folks.

I was in northern Mi. twice this summer, will be in southern Ohio in a week or so, and will be taking a little trip west and SW this winter... Probably be in northern Mi. at some time this winter too...

Don't worry, neither me, my family or farmer neighbors use any additives in our diesels and none of us have gelling problems, of course we all pay attention to what fuel we are using too... Try it, it really works... lol

SR

 

[Locoweed]

Additives are are not needed! Just put magnets around your fuel lines & all problems are solved & it gets better mileage too.

 

[daugen]

Additives are are not needed! Just put magnets around your fuel lines & all problems are solved & it gets better mileage too.

what did you say your name was?

one of the first words of Latin I learned was caveat emptor.

 

[coobie]

Actually you would be accurate about that... at least compared to many folks.

I was in northern Mi. twice this summer, will be in southern Ohio in a week or so, and will be taking a little trip west and SW this winter... Probably be in northern Mi. at some time this winter too...

Don't worry, neither me, my family or farmer neighbors use any additives in our diesels and none of us have gelling problems, of course we all pay attention to what fuel we are using too... Try it, it really works... lol

SR

Wow now thats some crazy Azz travel area.Let me see now in the past 6-8 months we have been to the UP of michigan twice,Ohio,Indiana,Wyoming,Utah,Nebraska,Kentucky,Minnesota,Colorado,Montana,N.Dakota.S.Dakota,Iowa,Wisconsin,Illinios and Arizona all using fuel additives.No worries here but some Funny chit ...Good luck to you,your family clan & your farmer neighbors on your future travels.May they be GELL FREE..laffin

 

[AxleHub]

I agree and have tried to keep those anti gelling and biocides out of the argument. I understand why rswyan wants anti gelling in the truck he stakes his life on in wintertime and I know what algae can do to diesel fuel in boats in warm climates.

Well now you've really got me confused Island. You claim youve kept crrtain categories out of the debate
But that is exactly the categories ive been tslkingbabout all along including my opening post andvevery one since. Remember when you said my friends issues couldn't be helped by additives ? And power service was the basis of my starting this thread.

In addition . . You are correct . . I trust 1st hand observation beccuse reliable users have no "customer affiliations" with the manufacturers to cloud the issue. And reliable users are more accurate than sales and marketing efforts from unknown people. Lastly . . Its not logical to use tractorbynet and yet not believe in 1st hand opinion of users. Island . . think of what you are saying. Until 2 posts. ago . . You weren't excluding anything . . All additives were voodoo . . Remember.

You have way way way too many posts to tell us 1st hand opinion isn't keenly important.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

Wow now thats some crazy Azz travel area.Let me see now in the past 6-8 months we have been to the UP of michigan twice,Ohio,Indiana,Wyoming,Utah,Nebraska,Kentucky,Minnesota,Colorado,Montana,N.Dakota.S.Dakota,Iowa,Wisconsin,Illinios and Arizona all using fuel additives.No worries here but some Funny chit ...Good luck to you,your family clan & your farmer neighbors on your future travels.May they be GELL FREE..laffin

Well, looks like you are a travel bug too... I don't get out near as much as I use to... Made 13 trips over the ALCAN over the years, and I've been in every state, plus almost all of Canada, and of course, went to Mexico too, but these days I stay closer to home...

It's pretty hard to drive to Hawaii though! lol lol

SR

 

[FatTire]

When people write "Power Service", it is not clear if they are talking white bottle (winter), silver (summer) or biocide (green?) . When people say they never use any additive, they must live where it doesn't get very cold. Here, if you don't use a winter additive, sooner or later you'll be sorry. Most likely sooner. Last January I went to fill up at convenience store in South Fork, CO, early in the morning, about 8am. It was -18F, and the #1 diesel was gelled in the hose. This is the only place to get fuel for miles, so I moved to the other side of the pump, which had already been used, and added some PS to my tank. Is anyone saying they wouldn't use an additive in that situation?

 

[DieselBound]

I'd consider an additive if it was cold enough: I don't have that worry. For anything else it's not essential (manufacturers would be advising if they were needed). I'd focus more on good filtration (and ensuring you're getting good fuel).

 

[kloudbuster]

Why wouldn't manufacturers specify the need for a lubricity enhancing additive if their engineers felt that modern low sulfur fuel was inadequate? Why would a major manufacturer design and build a modern diesel that had lubricity requirements that were not provided in modern diesel fuel?

I think the onus is on those who believe additives are necessary, not on those who go along with manufacturers stated fuel requirements (I'm talking about lubricity additives not anti gelling additives).

What about those of us that own old diesel tractors? Does the new low sulfur fuel affect us?