Designing a Corvair Custom Hydraulic Tractor

/ Designing a Corvair Custom Hydraulic Tractor #21  
That "Unsafe at any Speed" was one of the biggest hoax's ever put onto the American Public. Very unfortunate, but typical of our American Way.
 
/ Designing a Corvair Custom Hydraulic Tractor
  • Thread Starter
#22  
Not to be a dissenting voice, but did you ever read Unsafe at Any Speed? Good luck with the project.


Not to be rude by any means. Life is way to short for that stuff.

I have owned a few - they are safe!

Have you even owned one? :D

There have been many other books showing the newer findings long after that book.

Even the government stated that it was safe - years after the book you speak of was released.

Just like with a wil - it is the last one that counts!!! :laughing:

More times then not it's the driver behind the wheel of any car - one ton - two ton - ford - cehvy - that makes a car unsafe while driving....

Just like humans - all cars have their limitions...

Have you seen a corvair road race and tear up the track and other race cars? :D

Videos all over showing such stuff. :thumbsup:

BTW - Did you even read the thread or just the title?

I know people to this day who hear the word Amway - first thing out of their mouth - it is a pyramid scheme and against the law.

ODD how the US government after years and years of trying to find something wrong with Amway - stated that it was one of, if not, the only business like it that was not illegal. However, people still bad mouth it to this day. It's a part of life!

I only learned the true about it --as part of my college business class.


I hope you learn the truth about alot of things... and don't assume...or simply post stuff to stir things up.

Have a great day and good luck.
 
/ Designing a Corvair Custom Hydraulic Tractor
  • Thread Starter
#23  
Back the the program at hand. :laughing:


Max MPH and max RPMs I'm looking for:
I do NOT want to go over 20MPH or 2,500RPMs


Specs on 110HP Corvair Air-Cooled engine RPMs = HP:(up to 2,000RPMs should be more than enough)

RPMs - HP
1,000 = 25

1,500 = 35

2,000 = 50


I'm thinking:
Viarable sped Pump, operating under 2,500RPMs, mounted to engine with coupler.

1) I want the gas pedal to control the engine RPMs as well as how fast the tractor moves. (fluid to the differentail)

2) To have some way to lock the engine RPMs at 1,500 to 2,200 to run other hydraulic attachments at faster speeds - but I still want the pedal to control my speed of how fast the tractor moves.



Attachments I want to operate on the back:

A 60" cutting deck to pull behind the tractor - with a single hydraulic motor to operate the belt drive for 3 blades. (I'll look for such a deck used with the bad gas engine and rebuild the rest to mount the hydraulic motor in place of the gas engine)

A dump trailer to move firewood, dirt, and what-not. (Hyd raise only and let the bed bring it back down)

A Tiller

A chipper/shredder

Maybe a wood splitter



Attachments I want to operate on the front:

A 30" to 46" max, snowblower.
(my plan is buy a used walk behind and to remove the gas motor, drive setup and mount the rest of the front half with a hydraulic motor right to the main shaft) The entire thing will quick disconnect from the tractor.

A front bucket the same size as the snowblower.


Things I will need:
One Forward and Reverse control valve.
Mount it right in front of the seat, between my legs.

Hyd Storage tank
Sized TWO to TWO and Half times the GPM mounted under the seat and forward of seat if needed.

Hyd Filter

Hyd Cooler
Mount right above the cooling fan for the Corvair air-cooled Engine Quick disconnects for front and back attachment to tractor

One FIVE lever control vavle to operate:

1 - turns the shute from left to right

2 - to adjust how far the snow goes

3 - WINTER operates snowblower hydraulic motor - SUMMER - operates cutting deck hydraulic motor

4 - extra (block off for now)

5 - WINTER raises and lowers the snowblower - SUMMER raises the dump box to empty it

Governor
 
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/ Designing a Corvair Custom Hydraulic Tractor #24  
You have some cool stuff corvair guy. I love your place. When are you going to put a corvair engine on that Heritage st.
 
/ Designing a Corvair Custom Hydraulic Tractor #25  
Back the the program at hand. :laughing:
I'm thinking:
Viarable sped Pump, operating under 2,500RPMs, mounted to engine with coupler.

Governor

You need variable delivery pump (swash plate pump). In other words the pump should be able to deliver zero flow when the engine is running. Pumps like that are also reversible so you can drive forward and reverse without shifting gear.

You can use standard cruise control for speed governor. Some cars with manual transmissions had cruise based on ignition or just mount the speed pickup on a gear that turns proportionally with the engine speed.
 
/ Designing a Corvair Custom Hydraulic Tractor #26  
You need variable delivery pump (swash plate pump). In other words the pump should be able to deliver zero flow when the engine is running. Pumps like that are also reversible so you can drive forward and reverse without shifting gear

:thumbsup:
 
/ Designing a Corvair Custom Hydraulic Tractor #27  
All HST tractors use directional and ground speed controls that are independent of the engine speed control (throttle) for a reason...

You cannot stop the tractor with the gas pedal.

It is simpler to set the engine speed to a set RPM and then vary the speed and direction of a hydraulically propelled machine by varying the flow of the hydraulics with a pedal that is connected to a valve that can not only control flow rate but direction, too.

My Power Trac is a hydraulically propelled machine that I am very familiar with. It uses 4 hydraulic motors, one at each wheel, to provide propulsion. There is one variable volume pump as J_J described (he also has a Power Trac), that provides power to two series/parallel hydraulic circuits that drive the wheel motors (two motors to a circuit). There is a treadle pedal that controls both speed and direction. Left foot pedal is reverse, right foot pedal is forward. If you push the right pedal down, the left pedal raises and vice versa. If you take your feet off the pedals, the treadle self centers and the unit stops on its own. The farther down you push the pedal, the faster the tractor moves, but the torque decreases. So if you want more power, you let up on the pedal. Sounds weird, but that's the way it works.

By contrast, most HST tractors have an engine that drives a pump that provides hydraulic power to a hydraulic motor that turns a shaft on a transmission, which feeds a range case that feeds a drive shaft that turns a differential (or two if it is 4WD).

Either way, you have separate engine throttle and direction/speed controls.

Now, if you want to vary the speed of the unit with your gas pedal instead of a hydraulic pedal, you will need some very complicated and expensive hydraulic circuitry. The problems you are going to run into are going to be getting the unit to stop, change direction, etc...

How are you going to stop a hydraulically powered unit with the gas pedal? How are you going to change directions?
How are you going to start moving? There will be very little torque available if the engine is running at low RPM. If you step on the gas, chances are it will stall the engine before it overcomes the resistance of, say, a plow in a snow bank or a bucket in a pile of dirt.
If you set the engine at a high RPM but ground speed is controlled by the gas pedal, won't the unit want to move fast instantly? You will need a clutch to get it to launch smoothly and that is what you want to avoid, correct? See what I'm getting at? It is not an easy thing to accomplish.

As others have mentioned, reinventing the wheel is an option, or you can just re-engine an existing tractor. Just adapt a Corvair engine to an existing HST tractor.

Also, many years ago there was a prolific poster here on TBN named Mark Chalkley. He had a tractor called an Earth Force. It had what was called automotive control. As you stepped on the forward pedal, it sensed how much engine power was needed and increased the engine RPM accordingly. However, the forward pedal is not a gas pedal, it is a hydraulic pedal. It was a very fuel efficient setup and had the ability to run like I described, or he could manually raise the engine RPM for tasks that require high hydraulic flow but slow or varying ground speeds like brush hogging, mowing, snow blowing, etc...
Here is a link to how he describes it.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/all-other-brands/24986-earthforce-ef-500-i-r.html

Good luck with your project. It looks fun. Corvairs were cool cars. My uncle was president of the local Corvair club for many years.
 
/ Designing a Corvair Custom Hydraulic Tractor
  • Thread Starter
#28  
Thanks Redneck and Mossroad.

I'm taking notes and should I miss something I can come back to this thread time and time again. It's one reason I love the net. Now if I could learn more about computers than using the on and off switch. :laughing:


I'm looking into purchasing this New Holland TW20 Cab in the picture.
However, I like to see the size of the full tractor, with this platform, before I fully comit to the purchase.

Doing searches for used TW20 for sale; I have not been able to find anything like the one in the picture below. The ones I see have curved rear fenders and not flat ones.

Is this a TW20? (or did they mark it wrong)

Does anyone have a picture of this tractor?

Do you know what year it might be?

Also do you have any idea what something like this is worth? (they want $1,500)


EDIT - I forgot to mention I also put this post, about the cab platform, in the New Holland thread.

Thanks, Tony
 

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/ Designing a Corvair Custom Hydraulic Tractor #29  
Have you considered finding a skid steer for donor hydraulics. They have hydraulic motors, directional valves and a big pump. The new CAT skid steers have a foot feed option that I really like. An articulating design would be cool.

Dan
 
/ Designing a Corvair Custom Hydraulic Tractor
  • Thread Starter
#30  
Dan, I love to find a tractor/equipment junk yard up here.

However, since I moved to the great white north, to get married and live, I'm finding out that there is a lot I miss about the USA. :)

Don't get me wrong.. It is lovely up here and for the most part the people are more friendly here than they are or can be in the big cities of the USA.

I could sure do without these long long long winter! :D
And cold too = -40f cold... :p lol
 
/ Designing a Corvair Custom Hydraulic Tractor #31  
Not to be rude by any means. Life is way to short for that stuff.

I have owned a few - they are safe!

Have you even owned one? :D

There have been many other books showing the newer findings long after that book.

Even the government stated that it was safe - years after the book you speak of was released.

Just like with a wil - it is the last one that counts!!! :laughing:

More times then not it's the driver behind the wheel of any car - one ton - two ton - ford - cehvy - that makes a car unsafe while driving....

Just like humans - all cars have their limitions...

Have you seen a corvair road race and tear up the track and other race cars? :D

Videos all over showing such stuff. :thumbsup:

BTW - Did you even read the thread or just the title?

I know people to this day who hear the word Amway - first thing out of their mouth - it is a pyramid scheme and against the law.

ODD how the US government after years and years of trying to find something wrong with Amway - stated that it was one of, if not, the only business like it that was not illegal. However, people still bad mouth it to this day. It's a part of life!

I only learned the true about it --as part of my college business class.


I hope you learn the truth about alot of things... and don't assume...or simply post stuff to stir things up.

Have a great day and good luck.

I just asked if you had read the book. I realize Ralph Nader just used the Corvair to push auto safety in general and make a few bucks from the book.

I had a girlfriend that loved her Corvair until the front hood popped off almost getting her killed. Other than than that I thought the later ones were nicely styled.

It's funny how testy people are to reactions to their posts.
 
/ Designing a Corvair Custom Hydraulic Tractor #33  
I'm looking into purchasing this New Holland TW20 Cab in the picture.
However, I like to see the size of the full tractor, with this platform, before I fully comit to the purchase.

Doing searches for used TW20 for sale; I have not been able to find anything like the one
Thanks, Tony[/QUOTE]

Can't tell you for sure if that is an open station TW 20 or not, but if it is, that is from about a 130 HP ag tractor. I think that is bigger than what you are looking for. I would guess outside to outside width of the fenders would be around 6 or 7'. The steering wheel would have been about 7' from the ground. You can look up tractor models at Tractorhouse.com to see what they look like and going prices. They also have listings of tractors being parted out that might be of interest. I'm in the camp that you need to find a hydrostatic tractor to repower with your Corvair engine. A lot of design and engineering go into something like that, and not saying it can't be done, but I think you would save money and frustration by starting with a hydrostatic transmission from a proven platform.

Kim
 
/ Designing a Corvair Custom Hydraulic Tractor #34  
Deutz (germany) tractors use an air cooled Engine. I don't know whether they have hydrostatic models nowadays but my guess is yes. You might take a look at how they build for some ideas.
 
/ Designing a Corvair Custom Hydraulic Tractor #35  
That "Unsafe at any Speed" was one of the biggest hoax's ever put onto the American Public. Very unfortunate, but typical of our American Way.

Yeah it was a fraud put out to enhance a political agenda. Just like Al Gore admitted to about corn ethanol -- he supported it JUST for potential personal gain. But he would NEVER EVER do that about global warming to make himself $100 million dollars! .... would he? (Only in a heart beat)


Big pump is needed for the project. Here's one that matches the engine power.

https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-6557&catname=hydraulic

It will take 120 hp at full pressure and full flow.

Then get 2 of these for the rear wheels

https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-072-1040&catname=hydraulic

Talk to your local hydraulic guy oh how to plumb them so that you can have differential action or locked on demand. (I know it can be done, but ferget how to plumb it up !)

Then get a hydraulic control valve that can handle the 50gpm, set the pressure to 3000 psi and go.

Probably will need to get a variable flow divider that splits off up to 25 gph to power a 3pt lift, loader, power steering or other applications that need a hydraulic motor. I can imagine a front mount mower deck, front mount snow blower, etc powered by hydraulics.

With your 2 to 2.5x hydraulic volume you are going to need a 100-125 gal tank. You knew that, right? I would have thought that 30-50 gal was fine. As reservoir volume goes down, cooling requirements go up so you get to balance between the two.
 
/ Designing a Corvair Custom Hydraulic Tractor #36  
There have been two home made tractors by TBN members that stand out in my mind. One using a Suzuki 4x4 platform, the other...I don't recall but was the more recent project...both excellent builds by very talented fabricators but neither fully finished to my knowledge/recollection. It is a really ambitious undertaking...lots of design time, fabrication skills, Fab time and money. I know the fun is in making something from scratch but the reality of a project like this is you can ( not always buy needs to be considered a real possibility) that you spend twice as much on something half as functional as an old used factory machine. I think Hooked on HP is right on. Find a donor machine w/ bad motor work on an engine swap. I think you will end up with less expense and time in the machine and possibly ( probably) with something more functional.

Mossroad makes some really good points and gives good insight into what building a hydro machine is going to take. Hydraulics can become pretty complicated and require a good understanding of what you need, how it works and how to put it all together as a functioning package. Hydraulics are expensive. Do I think that a person can bargain shop/auction hunt/salvage and get what they need at greatly reduced cost? Yes...it also involves a lot of time, patience,luck and knowing what you are looking for. I'm not trying to say this can't be done or that you shouldn't be even be considering it.....just saying, it isn't as easy as it sounds like it should be.

That TW 20 is considerably larger than I thought you were looking for. I was thinking that somewhere in your posts you had mentioned large garden tractor/small compact tractor size machine (?)...the TW20 is a 130 HP os so, 12,000lbs tractor that probably rolls on 18 X 38" rear tires ( think tires as tall as your wife)...the cab is proportioned to these size components and weight. Try google images or tractorhouse.com, youtube ,etc and see if you can find some pics of one to give you an idea of size.

Have you given a gear drive any consideration? I know you have mentioned that a foot clutch is out but a hand clutch ( popular on some antique tractors)or a hydraulically actuated clutch would be simple enough and would certainly broaden the possibilities for the build greatly.I don't recall ever seeing a hydraulic set up on a tractor buy I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't be easy to do or why a responsive system wouldn't allow typical use....quick engagement/disengagement, slipping, etc. Most gear drive tractors also are set up from the factory with both a foot throttle and a lever throttle which would satisfy the needs you described earlier. High flow auxiliary hydraulics can also be added with PTO pumps or other forms at "reasonable" expense if needed if the tractors standard system is not sufficient for your needs.
 
/ Designing a Corvair Custom Hydraulic Tractor
  • Thread Starter
#37  
Thanks: KWentling, o2batsea, Ford Tractor and Kernopelli.

I'd love to be able to go see the used tractors. I can only find them online. And the only places I can see them online is in the USA. So Far I have not found a place in Ontario close to Ottawa that has a tractor junk yard so to speak.

I even called a few local dealers to see if they took in, as trade, any tractors needing an engine, trans or some big repair. NO such luck!!

So it is hard to tell what size some of these are in a picture.

BTW - If any of you hav enot guessed yet - I'm a city boy - not a country boy - I know nothing about tractors.

IF ANYONE knows of an old style good size GARDEN tractor - that will allow the stock or cutom attachments I want to be add - PLEASE point me to some info and pics. I'm interested in the sheet metal work and style.

Also IF you should come across a newer complete Larger size GARDEN tractor - like most are stating - that needs an engine - PLEASE post a link here.

Whatever I end up getting, I want to be able to get on and off easily or in and out when I build a cab.

Thanks, Tony
 
/ Designing a Corvair Custom Hydraulic Tractor #38  
Tractors use single pump and single hydraulic motor because they use also gearbox with two or three ranges. Reason being that the maximum torque and rpm of the motor are not infinite.
I forgot to mention that for effective usage of the hydrostatic propulsion you have to have a speed governor on the engine. The hydraulic system will vary load on the engine in great range. You have to maintain constant rpm not only for life of the engine but mainly for proper function of the driven implements. Also consider mass of the tractor. Looking at specks of the tractors on the market you need in average about 100 lb/HP for effective pulling power.
I would like to add, as someone already suggested, that you should look for used tractor with a bad engine or cheap Chinese tractor and replace the engine with Corvair. That is if you need a tractor. If you enjoy the process of building it (and have money to blow) go for the full build. Possible source of pumps, hydraulic controls and motors are also combines. I was just involved in repair of a combine few weeks ago. The reduction gear, brake and wheel hub come in one unit easily removable from the frame. Motor stays bolted in the frame and connects to the reduction gear by short shaft.
Here is a link for inspiration:
Struck Corp; Magnatrac? Compact Crawler Tractors
 

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/ Designing a Corvair Custom Hydraulic Tractor #39  
Do you have a local junk yard/metal recycler. Our local guy will usually put push mowers, motorcycles/atvs, lawn tractors, garden tractors, tractors etc. aside to be sold separately. If they don't sell after awhile, he'll crush them but he generally has a few sitting around. I'd also look on your closest craigslist, if nothing is available for sale, place a want ad for one.

Here's a pic of a junk yard project my 17 yr old son built entirely by himself when he was 11 yrs old...welding, paint, designed the clutch,etc. He bought a Snapper electric start push mower out of the scrap yard mower pile for $7. The wagon for $5 and he had the rest left from a lawn tractor he had bought from the junk yard mower pile for a previous project for $25. He did use some of my scrap metal.....I loved that thing and it ran like a top too! You can probably tell but I'm still proud of that one!
 

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/ Designing a Corvair Custom Hydraulic Tractor #40  
You can use standard cruise control for speed governor

Cruise controls make for a very rudimentary and only semi-effective speed control. It's difficult to explain, (and probably understand), but for a cruise control to work effectively, it would need to be much more responsive than it is. When set up for whatever car or light truck application it's in, it has parameters built-in that don't simply allow it to try and maintain a constant speed via monitoring rpm, it also tries to do so within a set of "behavior" parameters. How quickly it recognizes and responds to changes, how quickly it actually changes the throttle positioning, (both in throttling up and down), etc. are some of the variables considered.

Back in my first governor post, I mentioned how the electronic governors we use, (one manufacturer being Precision Governors), do not have a "one size fits all" model for spark ignition engines. They have several models. Each of those models has a "range" it's designed to operate in, once the application is made known to the manufacturer. Then they build the governor and ship them out to the end-user with a set of instructions as to adjusting it. It's pretty rare to take one out of the box and install it without having to tune it's performance via the trimpots. One setting that pretty much always needs tweaking is the "gain" setting. Too much gain one way causes the engine to bog because it isn't responding quickly enough, and too much gain the other way causes a lot of surging under smaller changes in engine load, because it's responding too quickly, overshooting it's target, then backing off....and then undershooting, etc.

It would be just as rare to install a simple cruise control and have it provide the functionality you're looking for. The problem there lies in the fact that you can't open up the back of the cruise control and tune it in for your particular application. You're stuck with whatever it dishes out.

;)
 

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