Cub Cadet 1811 - Need Advice Removing Engine

[NormL]

A generous neighbour of ours dropped off an old but well maintained CC1811 with mower attachment. He told me it had sat for ten years or so but started right up when he put gas in it and checked oil levels. He knew we needed a spare machine to mow our numerous acres of grass and said we could have it, as in for free!!

Well, we were more than happy to accept the offer and promptly put it to work. It has 600+ hours on an 18 hp Kohler engine but seemed to be running strong - for about three or four hours. My grandson was mowing their front yard when the engine simply died. I "schlepped" it back to the shop and started looking for the cause. It would start - barely, and ran poorly but stall if I tried driving it. Cleaned and adjusted the carb but no change. Put in new plugs which helped just a little but still wouldn't drive let alone run the mower deck. Changed the ignition module because the spark looked weak. A bit better but still lacked power and still not firing on the left side cylinder. Finally did what I should have at the beginning and did compression test. Right side has 80+ lbs. The left side - nothing, zero. Removed the head and saw what I feared; the piston does not move when I bump the starter, GRRRR...

There is no more avoiding it; the engine has to come out. My guess is the con-rod may be broken. But to deepen the mystery, when I pushed the piston back about a half inch and bumped the starter, it moved back to where it had been. It seems like the crankshaft pushes the con-rod out of the way and just runs the opposite cylinder. End cap broke and fell off? So I need to pull the engine and get at the bottom to see if repair is feasible. At least it didn't punch a hole in the block. May have done internal damage though.

Bottom line - advice, cautions, short-cuts?

 

[JJT]

No short cuts. Take your time, take pictures and start the tear down. Get your grandson involved, it sounds like a fun project to me.

 

[NormL]

"No shortcuts" means I'll have to start by removing the mower deck. I wish I had lowered it before shutting off the engine the last time. Now with the one side opened up I'm not sure about starting it up even for a few seconds. I'll try just cranking it with the starter while holding the valve open. Dropping should be minimal strain on the starter.

 

[oldnslo]

Deck should lower via gravity with out engine running. Just move the lever to lower.

 

[NormL]

It should and I tried it but it just hung there so I did it with the starter and that worked. I got the deck out of the way but the lift frame needs to go also. Took the hood and grill out of the way as well and that will have to do for today. It's hot out there, 31-32C (that's 89-90F) and I'm old and slow too so I need to pace myself.

 

[NormL]

I've put in an hour or two when time and energy allowed and have the engine out and on a temporary table. I am looking for the access to the crankshaft and connecting rods so I can see what it will take to put things right again. In the absence of a repair manual I'll be looking to the internet and knowledgeable TBNers to get me on the right track. I've been trying to figure out how to post the pix I've taken with my phone but so far no luck. I'll post this as is and keep trying

 

[oldnslo]

Usually their is a cover on the output end of the crankshaft that comes off. On vertical shaft engines it would be the oil pan. Remove the heads and tension off the cam shaft from the valves. Remove the push rods if that engine has them before taking that cover off since it may also hold one end of the cam shaft. Also note bolt lengths and locations since they may not all be the same length. Sometimes those covers are kind of stuck in place so tap gently to get it broke loose. There are alignment dowels so it will not twist to break loose. So and careful is the way to get this done looking for anything binding. Sometimes the bolt heads are hidden under crud in a depression in the cover.

 

[NormL]

Thank you for that, oldnslo, the engine model I'm working on is the horizontal one. It is mounted in such a way that the "front" of the engine faces the back and has a PTO attachment for driving the Hydro-static trans and hydraulics. The "back" end faces the front an has an electric clutch driven PTO for the various attachments. I'd rather not have to open either of those since access to the connecting rods is unlikely to be optimal from there. I was hoping for a removable oil pan or a plate on one side for reasonably easy access. Failing that, is there access through the top after the manifolds are removed? I will see what the internet has to say although the probing I have done so far has not been very fruitful.

 

[RandyT]

The pto clutch will need to come off in order to remove the side cover to access the rods

 

[WranglerX]

May be able to find manual for engine here...

https://kohlerpower.com/en/engines/service-manuals

 

[KennyG]

A little late to the game here, but take lots and lots of pictures. I always have that "one thing" I knew I would remember that gets left off.

 

[NormL]

Thank you RandyT for that tip, and WranglerX for the link. I will look for that access panel. The manual suggests the engine block is designed to split and I really don't want to go that route. It occurs to me that removing the cylinder barrel on the side with the broken con-rod should reveal everything I need to see before deciding to forge ahead or take a step back and rethink how deep this project needs to go before reassembly can begin. And yes, I've taken pictures as I go along to document the project as well as help with reassembly, thanks.

 

[NormL]

I've had some help from one of my daughters (visiting from Vancouver BC). Let's see if I can post pictures: First pic shows what I saw when the head was removed. Second shows damaged cylinder skirt. Third shows damage to piston. Fourth shows some deposit of metal from the con-rod. Last one shows the con-rod that was still attached to the piston plus some bits I was able to fish out of the crankcase once I took the cylinder off, That small item beside the con-rod worries me because I have no idea what it's for. I may have to split the crankcase to find out what it is and if it can be put back. What I fear is that it broke out when the other parts broke apart and that damage is not reparable.

 

[oldnslo]

You will have to remove the PTO and cover on that end of the engine to reassemble so I would do that to see what else is damaged. Not sure what that piece is part of. If that rod was starting seize what else is scored?

 

[RandyT]

The cylinder has been sitting with water in it for some period of time. So major rust damage, the crank and the broken rod pieces shows lack of lubrication failure mixed with water damage. And cylinder skirt damage from the rod hitting it.

 

[NormL]

oldnslo and Randy T thanks for your replies. The rust damage is doubtless from long time or frequent water finding its way in. And yes, I suspect a problem with lubrication to that portion of the crankshaft. All issues taken together, I have to wonder if I'd be better off looking for an engine replacement. By the time I've paid for the work I would have to "farm out", I might be money ahead. I'm looking into that option as well as the repair.

 

[NormL]

Here's a plan to determine whether the problem started with lubrication deficit. Fill the crankcase with enough oil for the pump to pick it up. Spin the crankshaft with a drill for a few seconds and watch for oil to emerge from the opening in the crankshaft clearly visible in the picture. If there is oil there then the issue lies elsewhere. If not, I would need to find a way to clear the obstruction(s). Thoughts?

 

[NormL]

I got a few quick minutes of shop time in just now and I am happy to report that after some back flushing and shots of compressed air, we have oil at the opening for the connecting rod. I'll still have to try to find out what other damage is hiding in the crankcase. Still looking for a way to gain access without splitting it. Next move will be tipping the engine on the side and removing the mounting plate from the underside. It's an oily greasy mess in need of cleaning up anyway!! If there should happen to be an oil pan to remove, that would be helpful.

 

[Grumpycat]

I find it hard to believe that rusty cylinder ran for 3 hours immediately before disassembly.

 

[NormL]

I totally agree, but the reality is that at first it had the power to run the mower and cut some serious grass before suddenly losing that capability. I don't think that mystery will be solved any time soon, if ever. I would much rather replace the engine than repair and reinstall this one with that mystery unresolved. It all comes down to cost. Right now there are too many other holes to fill and not enough dirt!!