Coyotes and Deer

[westcliffe01]

Robert, have you ever set up trail cameras in the vicinity of the pens at night ? Most of your visitors will be at night. Daytime is the exception to the rule, and usually means that the coyotes have determined that showing up in the daytime goes unchallenged. It also sounds like you have good fencing, which most livestock operations do not. Usually, fences are made to comply with legal definitions, which in some cases may be 3 strands of barbed wire. The sheep farm I was at originally had welded mesh type fencing but most of it is over 50 years old and in bad shape and a lot of fixes have been done with high tensile wire and that neither keeps sheep in nor predators out.

We have only ever had one coyote come up to our pens (that we have seen at least) and it came to the fawn pen. Couldn't get in and was peppered with a shot shell for even coming up this close.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Robert, have you ever set up trail cameras in the vicinity of the pens at night ? Most of your visitors will be at night. Daytime is the exception to the rule, and usually means that the coyotes have determined that showing up in the daytime goes unchallenged. It also sounds like you have good fencing, which most livestock operations do not. Usually, fences are made to comply with legal definitions, which in some cases may be 3 strands of barbed wire. The sheep farm I was at originally had welded mesh type fencing but most of it is over 50 years old and in bad shape and a lot of fixes have been done with high tensile wire and that neither keeps sheep in nor predators out.

Never had the cameras set near the fence but when we do find the occasional track you can see the dog/coyote doesn't even flinch. It walks past the pens and continues on its way. The cameras we have had set up on deer trails have never caught any coyote images. The fawn pen is behind my parents house and we have two pens between my parents house and mine as well as pens at my grandfathers house and out back on our property out of sight. The furthest pens away are where we occasionally see tracks but again, they never bother the fence, they use the path between the creek and the fence (just big enough to drive a 50 horse tractor through) and continue on their way to a 6 acre field and then on to the woods. Dogs have been the most trouble some just because to them deer are something to chase. We have had issues with dogs at our house and my grand fathers place. Our fences are 9' tall and are woven wire starting at 2" horizontal spacing on the bottom getting wider up to 4' high then it is 6" the rest of the way to 8' with a single strand at 9' high. The vertical wires are every 6". We set the wire tight to the ground have have posts ever 15' and have two stakes between each posts to hold the wire down. One trick I learned is to not keep the grass killed/mowed around the bottom of the fence. I use weed spray once ever couple years to keep the brush down but the grass actually helps keep the wire held down. One thing I have noticed with the dog incidents is the dog will run around the pen instead of trying to go through, as they run around the deer take the straight route to the furthest point away from the dogs. They always try to run around, not through or under. However, if a deer had died and is laying near the fence I could see a predator taking the time to dig under the fence to get to it but again, this comes down to taking care of the animals and pens. We check on our animals daily and our fences all the time. It is just how I was raised, you walk by always looking at the posts and wire and you notice problems when you pay attention. I just found a broken post tonight, coming back from the tower I walked by the pen and noticed a post angled different and it has broke just below ground level. Tomorrow a new post will be installed and no problems will develop.

 

[tractchores]

I've had some interactions with coyotes. In the NE they can get quite large. Growing up deer hunting I had 2 run-ins with them when lost after dark. Both times there were 2 - 4 of them and they stayed just out of flashlight range (basically a pen-light) and yipped to each other all around me as I found my way out of the woods, I was armed, but it sure did make me nervous. I just happened to be around when they were and I'm not sure if they were curious or being aggressive.

On my property now I've got a large rodent population and a large predator population, including a small group of coyotes. The coyotes are not hunted and their population has been very stable over the last 5 years. They're VERY wary of people, but I see them on my trail camera regularly and they have a pretty standard schedule. We've also got a large deer population, though I haven't seen them actually capture or kill a deer that I know of and virtually all the fawns I see in spring make it to winter.

The only time I've seen one chase a deer was a small yearling. I was ice fishing on my lake and heard something coming from shore. The deer runs out onto the ice and comes straight for me, I thought she was going to run me over, but she ran about 10' from me and kept going, about 100' behind her a coyote comes out of the woods. It looked pretty tired and trotted probably to within 50' of me and then I started towards it and yelled and it ran back into the woods. The deer didn't seem too tired and kept on going up on the hill where it started browsing again. I think it was using me as a defense knowing the coyote wouldn't come by me. I've seen them huddle close to the house at night too when I hear coyotes howling in the woods, but that could just be coincidence. I guess in my case I'm happy its a stable population and scared of people and I'll just keep a close eye on my pets and chase them off if I see them.

 

[Beltzington]

Good discussion and glad to read others think about this, I must have gotten soft in my old age but it makes me sad to see any wild creature killed for no reason. Live and let live is a philosophy I apply as I can. I don’t kill spiders or snakes unless they pose a direct danger to life and limb. Hunt for food awesome, protect life and property as required but to justify killing coyotes to protect deer herds is ludicrous. Even if there where substantial evidence of excessive deer predation, which there isn’t, has anybody heard of a deer shortage in the last 20-years? This argument is typically initiated by a bored stand hunter who feels the need to shoot at something. Personnel safety, really? I have a 60lb mixed breed dog with an attitude and I have no doubts who would win an argument should she decide to break bad. Yotes are an unprotected species, if someone enjoys the challenge of hunting them or they just enjoy the killing they should cowboy up and say so. Personally I would greatly miss the sounds of a pack hunting or a lone howl, makes me feel alive. Rant over.

 

[Lou66]

I have a rugur 17 magnum rim fire with a simmons scope that I carry with me in the John Deere Gator,, not the best of rifles and not the worse of four wheelers.. But we get the job done when it comes to coyotes.. at two hundred yards they always stop to look back to see if I am following.. wrong decision for them.. buzzards got to eat just like worms.. I have barn cats that take care of the rodents and they don稚 mess with my livestock.. Lou

 

[dave1949]

The farmer I mentioned made a substantial financial loss due to coyotes.

In Michigan, coyotes are a "game" species. There is a specific season to hunt them, including a short night hunting season. You have to buy a small game license. There are several months of the year when they are off limits. Only farmers and "designated representatives" are permitted to shoot them year round on private property "when doing or about to do damage". The fact is that with them being mainly nocturnal and a ban on nocturnal hunting for most of the year and on top of that a rimfire only restriction at night, and it has to be clear that no amount of legal hunting is ever going to make a dent in their population. The only thing one can hope to achieve is to discourage them re-entering the property after their first encounter with you.

Dealing with these predators is very labor intensive. Trapping cannot be used in the presence of livestock without causing a lot of collateral damage. In residential areas, liberal town councils have enacted shooting prohibitions. I actually have a bigger coyote problem in my neighborhood than the farmer currently has. I have to escort my dogs when they go outside at night since we now regularly see coyotes within a short distance of homes. Frankly, these liberal tree hugging laws and predators are on a collision course. People are going to start dying and already the attacks in California are on the rise (the most liberal of states). When that has gone too far, then I imagine we will start seeing them being shot from helicopters like they do in Texas, except it will all be gov employees.

Man has always put predators in their place and made sure they understood they were not welcome near people or domestic animals. That is really all that we need. I don't care what the coyote does in the woods as long as the livestock are safe, as well as our kids and domestic animals. If the coyotes cross the line and venture into our space, they either need to die or learn not to come back.

That works until all, or essentially all, the space is "our space." Then what? Do we eliminate species? By the way, without liberals, there wouldn't be much that's wild and clean left in this country. For that, you should be thankful.

I can see deterring/teaching avoidance to coyotes, or killing when needed, to protect vulnerable farm animals, but we need to be looking ahead at some sort of wildlife planned areas that preserve species too.

I have coyotes around and they have not eliminated the deer by any means, so I agree with the earlier post that said killing coyotes to improve the deer hunter's chances is nonsense and no way to manage wildlife. Coyotes are non-native here. They moved in after wolves were eliminated. Still, they serve a very useful role in nature here as a predator. As far as I know, without highly managed hunting, it isn't possible to have a healthy and normal herbivore population without predators.

 

[Little Red Tractor]

I've also enjoyed reading the discussion. We have a small Christmas tree farm and have coyotes coming through the area frequently. We generally hear them hunting around midnight during the summer when the windows are open and see their tracks in the winter snow. They're eating something furry, as evidenced by the scat. They're welcome to all the voles and mice they can take. We get a bit nervous when they're around the house and garage, however.
I've never seen them take down a deer; but, as has been posted, there's video out there showing it happening. There is enough evidence of them taking livestock in the area, but it's not common; I've often suspected that feral--or wild-running--dogs are an equal problem. Many of my friends hunt and trap them, and that's fine, but for my purposes the're good neighbors.

 

[dmccarty]

...

The only time I've seen one chase a deer was a small yearling. I was ice fishing on my lake and heard something coming from shore. The deer runs out onto the ice and comes straight for me, I thought she was going to run me over, but she ran about 10' from me and kept going, about 100' behind her a coyote comes out of the woods. It looked pretty tired and trotted probably to within 50' of me and then I started towards it and yelled and it ran back into the woods. The deer didn't seem too tired and kept on going up on the hill where it started browsing again. I think it was using me as a defense knowing the coyote wouldn't come by me. I've seen them huddle close to the house at night too when I hear coyotes howling in the woods, but that could just be coincidence. I guess in my case I'm happy its a stable population and scared of people and I'll just keep a close eye on my pets and chase them off if I see them.

I don't know how many coyotes we have in our area but I hear them from time to time and we saw one very close to the house on morning. This thread has me thinking about getting a new game camera and seeing what it sees.

I have heard a pack of dogs chasing deer and the deer always won. The deer was just playing with the dogs. The deer would run, stop, take a break, wait for the dogs to catch up and repeat until the dogs gave up. I think a healthy deer would do the same most of the time for coyotes. Now if the adult deer was ambushed or trapped, then the coyote might win one.

The danged forest rats, aka deer, ate the garden plants I had started last spring. The plants were on the south side of the house, right against the house in fact, and the ^&*( forest rats found the plants and ate them all. As a result, the garden was growing weeds this summer. Three mornings in a row when I left for work, an adult deer was IN the garden. The garden has a six foot tall fence and the deer have never gone into the garden before. There was plenty of food outside of the garden and only weeds inside the fence. I think the deer was jumping into the garden since it was protected. I did not hear anything chasing the deer, I think she just figured that the fenced in garden was secure and in she went. I had always read, and many local fences are eight feet tall. I gambled on a six foot tall fence which did protect the garden until this deer jump the fence. Well, it is a temporary fence so I guess it is time to build the proper fence eight feet tall.

My dad did bring up a predator caller one year and called in something. But he had taken my GSD out with him and when the predator was running to the caller, my dog chased off whatever was being called. NC passed a law this year that finally allows night hunting of coyotes.

Later,
Dan

 

[jymbee]

By the way, without liberals, there wouldn't be much that's wild and clean left in this country. For that, you should be thankful.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[Bob77064]

About two months ago I was cutting the grass with a riding mower. A big coyote ran through the yard close to me. The surprisng thing it was 3:00 in the afternoon, bright sunshine. That was the first time I have ever seen a coyote out in the open during bright daylight.

 

[studor]

Having been both east and west hunting deer and coyotes but not being a biologist I believe that coyotes are opportunists -- if they think they can kill it without getting hurt themselves they will. I have seen small deer in several places that were obviously taken by coyotes.I think the ones in the east are bigger (in general) and far less concerned with man and therefore are probably more dangerous. I agree that wild running dogs are a problem and if they inter-breed into coy-dogs they are even more of a problem. There are coyotes on the golf course behind our in- town house and I am sure that the occasional cat or small dog is lost to them. I don't think that hunting has much of an impact on them except to give them a little more caution around man which is probably a good thing. They apparently displace fox populations but I have not seen evidence of that having seen them both in the same territory on the golf course and at the farm. In general I let them be except when I see one with mange or in mid winter when the pelt is particularly nice. A feral dog or cat is much more of a problem to me than the coyotes but that is a personal bias --:2cents:

 

[Jesse masterson]

I used to own a dog grooming and boarding faciliy for30 years many of my customers (dogs) were lost to coyote predation, I now hunt them.i have seen coyote rip to peices large dogs like German shepards and Airedales , there is no doubt in my mind they could do the same on deer. They chase deer at a slow pace because dogs are genetically made for distance running , the heart is extremely oversized for there body allowing them stamina . They literally run deer to death.

 

[sdkubota]

Well said George.

 

[tractchores]

I don't know how many coyotes we have in our area but I hear them from time to time and we saw one very close to the house on morning. This thread has me thinking about getting a new game camera and seeing what it sees.

One thing you find out with the game camera is that coyotes are active 24 hours a day. I see them in daylight and at night on the camera. Mine have a very fixed schedule, a big one always runs by at 5:30 every night and they show up on the game trails like clockwork. I did at one point put out an old rotisserie chicken to see what showed up and got a big surprise. The deer ate it!