Confused about various diesel additives

[Skyco]

if additives helped, they either add them at the refinery or would if the helped.

Except like everyone they try to get by as cheaply as possible. Same thing with cetane, most produce fuel just a hair above 40 since that is the minimum "standard' even while many diesel engine manufacturers want to see 45 or better. Sure they could produce 45+ but it costs them more...

 

[sw03]

Funny, seems PS white bottle if a real hoot here. I ran it till I did some UOA's before and after using. Now I do not use it. Don't trust me here, run some UOA without using it and then using it. See the higher wear results etc. You could not give it to me for FREE to use.

 

[DEWFPO]

Funny, seems PS white bottle if a real hoot here. I ran it till I did some UOA's before and after using. Now I do not use it. Don't trust me here, run some UOA without using it and then using it. See the higher wear results etc. You could not give it to me for FREE to use.

So your saying adding Power Service (white) to your fuel in the mfr. recommended quantities somehow caused higher wear in your engine resulting in a bad Used Oil Analysis?

I'm trying to understand "cause and effect" here.

Do you think it came from too much fuel getting into the oil or something else?

Could it have been purely coincidental with something else?

Your thoughts are appreciated.

DEWFPO

 

[ihuntbear]

I use lucas with antigel.no issues

 

[Dmace]

Funny, seems PS white bottle if a real hoot here. I ran it till I did some UOA's before and after using. Now I do not use it. Don't trust me here, run some UOA without using it and then using it. See the higher wear results etc. You could not give it to me for FREE to use.

You added a lubricating additive and it increased wear. Okay, so what do you use for a winter additive in the diesel fuel or do the anti-gel additives make the fuel gel too?

 

[Diamondpilot]

Something is not adding up here.

Chris

 

[Skyco]

Frank doesn't tell the whole story....the added metal in the oil analysis is usually copper. Well known phenomona with a number of additives, not just PowerService, since many use similar chemistry.
Since no other wear metal show up is it really wear or just the chemicals in the fuel additive getting into the oil and leaching some copper out? I think the latter.
I see it too in oil analysis but consider this-
if its just copper going up a few PPM do we know it really makes a difference since it perhaps isn't even wear? Oil cooler cores frequently contain copper and that can be the source due to a chemical process with the oil. Some diesel fuel including the additives in the fuel do get into the oil, engines don't seal perfectly and diesel doesn't cook off like gasoline.
Here are a couple of good reads on the subject-
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/646/copper-diesel-engine-oil
http://universallubes.com/images/uploads/100401-DieselCopperAna.pdf

Particularly note the quote from the second document about copper detection in oil- "However, if there is a change in oil chemistry, the coating layer will
reform with the new chemistry sometimes causing high copper readings until the new
coating is established."

Change the additive and you change the oil chemistry.

 

[sw03]

Frank doesn't tell the whole story....the added metal in the oil analysis is usually copper. Well known phenomona with a number of additives, not just PowerService, since many use similar chemistry.
Since no other wear metal show up is it really wear or just the chemicals in the fuel additive getting into the oil and leaching some copper out? I think the latter.
I see it too in oil analysis but consider this-
if its just copper going up a few PPM do we know it really makes a difference since it perhaps isn't even wear? Oil cooler cores frequently contain copper and that can be the source due to a chemical process with the oil. Some diesel fuel including the additives in the fuel do get into the oil, engines don't seal perfectly and diesel doesn't cook off like gasoline.

It is more then copper here and not in all adds. Using Redline engine oil will do the same thing in UOA; based on your post. Again use PS and see what it does.

I am not anti-PS but there are better adds out there. I am not posting any other fluids since you can find them yourselfs.

 

[PoorMansCat]

Every great once awhile I will add a "glug" of Caterpillar fuel conditioner... I pulled two oil samples at random times.... Granted, wasn't looking for anything or having an issue, just curious as to how the oil would look... Never saw anything abnormal..
If you are worried about lubricity, just add some ashless 2-stroke engine oil every once awhile.
Be wary of snake oil, blinker fluid, and replacement muffler bearings..

 

[Happyman]

Be wary of snake oil, blinker fluid, and replacement muffler bearings..

Funny! :laughing::thumbsup: I like that. Thanks for the chuckle :thumbsup:

 

[JIGBUILDER]

I've ran oil analysis every 50k on my '03 Dodge/Cummins and I also use PS products. No abnormal wear in 177000 miles. I use Cummins 15000 mile oil change schedule most of the time now and the report says to keep doing the same maintenance schedule and the same products.

Some fodder to ponder;
My neighbor has a 100 hp JD tractor. He had to have the injector pump replaced. JD diagnosis was lack of lubricity. My neighbor has a 250 gal overhead fuel tank and a single supplier for the fuel. Every fuel supplier has their branded fuel supplement package added before transport. According to JD it can be common for a fuel supplier to miss with a package in the tanker at the time of transport. This isn't a big deal for filling a large fuel tank at the truck stop as lots of treated fuel is left in the truck stops tanks which adds some additives to the untreaed fuel. Treated fuel is also left in the trucks tanks so it adds a bit more additives.

On the flip side the tanker fills my neighbours nearly empty tank with untreated fuel. Each time he filled the tractor smaller tank the untreated fuel rose to a big enough percent that damage occured.

My older blue tractor injector pump/lines/fitting started leaking after using several tanks of LSD a few years back. The problem was the type of seals and O rings/gasket materials didn't get the proper lube packages added back from the new LSD fuel. Not all injector pumps/fuel systems had that issue. Some times the proper snake oil is required as one size don't fit all.

 

[Diamondpilot]

My older blue tractor injector pump/lines/fitting started leaking after using several tanks of LSD a few years back. The problem was the type of seals and O rings/gasket materials didn't get the proper lube packages added back from the new LSD fuel. Not all injector pumps/fuel systems had that issue. Some times the proper snake oil is required as one size don't fit all.

Are you sure it did not have some Bio in it? That stuff will play havoc on hoses and seals at ratio's as low as B5.

Chris

 

[PoorMansCat]

My older blue tractor injector pump/lines/fitting started leaking after using several tanks of LSD a few years back. The problem was the type of seals and O rings/gasket materials didn't get the proper lube packages added back from the new LSD fuel. Not all injector pumps/fuel systems had that issue. Some times the proper snake oil is required as one size don't fit all.

We had this EXACT same thing happen with my in-laws 1958 Industrial Ford.

I ended up having to pull the injection pump, disassemble it, and re-sealing it. The local injection pump shop had a "retrofit" seal kit that was more tolerant of the ULSD fuel...
He shoulda kept that dang tractor!!.

 

[ModMech]

When we transitioned from #2D to #2 LSD there were some problems with seals, but it was relatively minor. The switch to ULSD from #2 LSD in contrast, has caused a LOT of problems.

Some of the relevant facts are: Most refiners added virgin addatives for lubricity to LSD.... at least until they discovered used engine oil was cheaper and just as effective. Then we started seeing problems with seals, but again, it was minor. Then you go to ULSD and that stuff is DRY, it removed the elastomers (oils) from the seals and you often had seal leaks. This is MUCH more common on fuel systems operated extensively on LSD previously, hmmm, I wonder why? The EVIDENCE is the black line on the fuel filters run with red or green fuel, where does "black" come from? Used oil added to the fuel.

No amount of cetane improver will actually improve cetane for longer than a few days. Cetane is a light aeromatic and even in moderately cold temperatures it rapidly evaporates. The cetane of any fuel is determined mostly by the quality of the base stock and so a lesser extent by the refining process. Higher quality/more gentle = higher pump cetane. There are also two cetane measurements, as with gasoline, Cetane Number and Cetane Index (Motor and Research Octane). It is the AVERAGE of the Number and Index we need to be concerned with.

The EPA has estabilshed minimum standards for the fuels used for certification purposes, the EMA and SAE agree with those (higher) standards. The ASTM (led by Big Oil and Refiners) has steadfastly refused to amend their 40 cetane minimum "standard", eventhough everyone recognizes that the performance and emissions suffer greatly for it. The biggest factor in low cetane is increased crank-to-start times, cold smoke and soot production. Some loss of power is also reported with lower cetane fuels.

 

[TonyF]

MPGreen, ~4 oz per 25 gallon, nothing else. Every now and then, I'll dump 4 oz in a full fuel tank. The "fleet" starts easily and little smoke.

Tony

 

[jlrsn]

I've used Stanadyne Performance Formula (2 to 4oz in the summer and 4 to 6oz in the winter per 29 gallon tank refill) in my diesel F250 Superduty Trucks since the mid nineties and have never had gelled fuel or starting problems even down to -25 where I live up at 8,000' in the Rockies. I use 4 to 6oz per 10.6 gallon tank refill in my Kubota L39 as I never know how long it will be in there and if I wake up with 6+ feet of new snow my L39 is my first to start in the morning. I've had 6+ inches of new snow as late as June 15th.

 

[Don87]

I was just looking at additive websites, and I was kinda surprised.
Howes was unimpressive.
Power service was unimpressive.
Amsoil is a maybe.
Stanadyne is a maybe.
MP Green was kinda impressive with the test tubes, but little more info than that.
Now which to choose?

 

[mcd176]

Here is a great report done on Diesel Addatives, very in depth.

Lubricity Additive Study Discussion - Diesel Place

 

[thatguy]

I used Power Service white bottle for quite a few years without any issues, but I found a 'study' (?) online someplace (that I cant find right now) that said Howes was a better (not the best though) anti-gel.. I will keep looking and see if I can find that study..

PS and Howes are the most readily available around here..

brian

 

[Don87]

Here is a great report done on Diesel Addatives, very in depth.

Lubricity Additive Study Discussion - Diesel Place

Thanks