Concerns about 2nd/3rd tier brands

[ChesapeakeMarine]

I have been reading about the troubles and now the shutdown of FarmTrac Tractors. Is ashame that a company that put out what looked to be a very good line of products go out of business. They where even backed/owned by a large company, Escorts.

In a economy that is not growing to very slowly growing bordering on a recession, does it make sense to buy from a 2nd or 3rd tier tractor builder like Montana, Kioti, TYM, and others at this time? I almost included Mahindra but from what I have found out is Mahindra is a huge, global industrial giant, financially sound and may become the largest manufacturer/marketer of tractors in the world.

Personally I would have to consider, very thoroughly, a purchase from a 2nd or 3rd tier company at this point. Can those types of companies weather a prolonged recessionary period? The FarmTrac customers don't have warranty coverage anymore. What about parts and service...they may be totally out of luck.

 

[davitk]

I looked at a used Honda CUT a few years ago, ten or twelve years old and about the size of a Kubota B7500. The dealer let me take it home for a few days and play around. I absolutely LOVED the machine, but Honda had quit producing it in the US and I could find no place that had parts (oh, all the Honda dealers could get parts).

That does not exactly answer your question, since Honda is still in business and would take an act of God to put them out of business, but potentially any of the smaller companies could pull out of the market leaving owners high and dry. Time will tell.

 

[bandit67]

I don't think Kioti is going anywhere anytime soon, as the parent company is quite large, and Kioti has been in this country for a good 20 years now, and seems to have staying power. They are trying to grow the dealer network, but they still have a long way to go, but they now are producing private labeled machines for Bobcat - I can see that endeavor possibly not lasting.

Montana has been changing hands and barely staying in business in recent years from what I have read and has a very limited dealer network. TYM also has a limited dealer network. I could definitely see some of those brands disappearing from the US market if the economy stays slow for too long.

I can see the new Cub/Yanmar partnership taking away a lot of business from the smaller, less recognizable brands, as both names have a long history in this country and good name recognition, and their first 2 entries seem to be worthy competitors to what's out there already, and at very reasonable prices. The key for that venture is to get some established, major brand dealerships to pick them up, and keep the prices down to drum up the initial business.

It's all a crap shoot, though. I ended up with a newly introduced subcompact from Case New Holland, only to see the entire under-33hp Case versions completely dropped from the lineup within 3 years of their introduction, and the New Holland compact lineup has also been dropping some decent models that haven't sold well against the competition. It seems CNH priced themselves out of the market, and I can see the same thing happening with some of the far-east brands. You can't expect new entries in the US to get market share with the same or higher pricing as the established competition, no matter what the size of the parent company.

 

[ToadHill]

Chesapeake: Be honest with us and fill out your profile, your comments sound a lot like someone with an agenda. I for one can't take your comments seriously without understanding from whence they come.

 

[BTI]

In this world of giants and little guys both crashing it all depends on who plays their cards right.
Size has little to do with it.

BTI

 

[mboulais]

I have been reading about the troubles and now the shutdown of FarmTrac Tractors. Is ashame that a company that put out what looked to be a very good line of products go out of business. They where even backed/owned by a large company, Escorts.

In a economy that is not growing to very slowly growing bordering on a recession, does it make sense to buy from a 2nd or 3rd tier tractor builder like Montana, Kioti, TYM, and others at this time? I almost included Mahindra but from what I have found out is Mahindra is a huge, global industrial giant, financially sound and may become the largest manufacturer/marketer of tractors in the world.

Personally I would have to consider, very thoroughly, a purchase from a 2nd or 3rd tier company at this point. Can those types of companies weather a prolonged recessionary period? The FarmTrac customers don't have warranty coverage anymore. What about parts and service...they may be totally out of luck.

I'm not sure I would include TYM and Kioti in the same category with Branson,and Montana. I also noticed the Northern Tool tractors weren't in your list.

I have heard from someone who saw several of the northern tool tractors that they junk.


The Montana brand is marketed by a Korean Company "LG". They are big and into everything, and probably stable. But will they stay in the tractor business long term? They are nice looking tractors by the way. I looked at some with a friend two weeks ago. One or two models unfortunately had the fuel tank mounted right behind the right front tire. Not a good spot if you are going to leave the lawn.

TYM makes several models for Mahindra. My Mahindra 4110 is exactly the same as a TYM model in everything but the engine. I Think it shares the same engine as a Kioti 45? Anyway, both of them look strong enough to stay in the tractor market for a while. My new hydraulic filters came in with the TYM logo and part # on them.

The lineage of some brands/models gets complicated. Some small Mahindras are made by Mitsibushi and are the same as tractors previously marketed by cub cadet. (I think I've got that right). John Deere sells some tractors made by Yanmar. Now Yanmar and Cub Cadet are partnered up. I see bobcat is now marketing a compact tractor. I would bet that is made by one of the others and rebadged.


I wonder about the viability of Branson.

If you are worried about parts availability, worry about the consumables. Oil filters, air filters, and fuel filters. Find a tractor with spin on filters and generic air filters and everything else can be handled as it comes up.

 

[MikePA]

Kioti is a division of Daedong Industrial, South Korea, whose principal activity is manufacturing of agricultural and forestry equipment worldwide for the past 50 years.

Montana is a privately held, US company who imports tractors made in South Korea and Romania, adds tires, loaders and the Montana decals and ships them to approx 300 dealers, same number of dealers as Farmtrac. Their CEO resigned 11 months resulting in a management shake up.

TYM, Tong Yang Moolsan Company, another South Korean company was founded in 1960. In addition to agricultural machinery, they make stainless steel flatware, stainless steel, and overseas publication distribution services.

So, the only company that'd be directly affected by a US recession, should one occur, would be Montana. The others could indirectly be affected by reduced sales in the US.

I don't put Kioti in the same category as Montana and TYM.

 

[Builder]

In this world of giants and little guys both crashing it all depends on who plays their cards right.
Size has little to do with it.

BTI

That's fun conversation, but I don't see the likes of JD, MF, Case/IH, Kubota "crashing".

 

[ddivinia]

That's fun conversation, but I don't see the likes of JD, MF, Case/IH, Kubota "crashing".

Regardless if the companies stay in business - it might be impossible to get parts unless you want to catch a flight so Seoul....

D.

 

[ChesapeakeMarine]

Chesapeake: Be honest with us and fill out your profile, your comments sound a lot like someone with an agenda. I for one can't take your comments seriously without understanding from whence they come.

"Be honest"? What do you think I am being dishonest about Toad?

 

[Coolnslo]

I have been reading about the troubles and now the shutdown of FarmTrac Tractors. Is ashame that a company that put out what looked to be a very good line of products go out of business. They where even backed/owned by a large company, Escorts.

In a economy that is not growing to very slowly growing bordering on a recession, does it make sense to buy from a 2nd or 3rd tier tractor builder like Montana, Kioti, TYM, and others at this time? I almost included Mahindra but from what I have found out is Mahindra is a huge, global industrial giant, financially sound and may become the largest manufacturer/marketer of tractors in the world.

Personally I would have to consider, very thoroughly, a purchase from a 2nd or 3rd tier company at this point. Can those types of companies weather a prolonged recessionary period? The FarmTrac customers don't have warranty coverage anymore. What about parts and service...they may be totally out of luck.

Do you own a tractor? Are you thinking about buying one? This makes for interesting conversation, but do you have questions you need answered as this is mostly what these forums are about.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Instead of having this discussion on two threads I am bringing this over from the Farmtrac thread

Regarding 2nd/3rd tier companies, Yes I do think that if the tractor is not a Kubota, JD or NH it's something less than 1st tier. That's just my perception/opinion, worth about as much as yours is, and it won't change in the near future. Mahindra, however, may become the fourth member of that 1st tier someday.

This may be your perception but it isn't worth as much as mine. You are making up your own classifications of tractors based on what? I am going to assume Case-IH and all of the Agco brands are 2nd tier tractors since they are not on your list. And since Claas, Same/Deutz Fahr, Landini, McCormick, JCB and all the others are also 2nd or 3rd tier brands. Just because you have not heard of them or know much about them doesn't make them a lesser brand.

Farmtrac was brought down by poor management. Bill posted a great example of a once powerful International Harvester tractor company went down in flames also because of poor management during a hard time. Huge 1st tier brands can collapse also.

Spend some time learning about this industry and why things happen. It will give you a much better insight into what to buy instead of what your neighbor has or what brand you think is popular. I have no loyalty to Farmtrac or any other brand. I run all CNH equipment because I have dealers near by. Yet as long as I know where I can get parts easily I will add any brand to my farm if the numbers work out.

 

[DK35vince]

does it make sense to buy from a 2nd or 3rd tier tractor builder

Explain to me what is a 2nd or 3rd tier tractor ??
Who decides which tractors are 2nd or 3rd tier ??

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Explain to me what is a 2nd or 3rd tier tractor ??
Who decides which tractors are 2nd or 3rd tier ??

This is how he classified it in the Farmtrac thread

Yes I do think that if the tractor is not a Kubota, JD or NH it's something less than 1st tier.

So if you own anything other then a Kubota, John Deere or New Holland you are the proud owner of a 2nd or 3rd tier tractor. I am hoping he breaks it down some more as I want to know which ones are 2nd tier and which ones are 3rd tier

 

[ChesapeakeMarine]

This is how he classified it in the Farmtrac thread



So if you own anything other then a Kubota, John Deere or New Holland you are the proud owner of a 2nd or 3rd tier tractor. I am hoping he breaks it down some more as I want to know which ones are 2nd tier and which ones are 3rd tier

If it's not a Kubota, JD or CNH it's something less than first tier...simple enough for you Bob?

 

[ChesapeakeMarine]

Instead of having this discussion on two threads I am bringing this over from the Farmtrac thread



This may be your perception but it isn't worth as much as mine. You are making up your own classifications of tractors based on what? I am going to assume Case-IH and all of the Agco brands are 2nd tier tractors since they are not on your list. And since Claas, Same/Deutz Fahr, Landini, McCormick, JCB and all the others are also 2nd or 3rd tier brands. Just because you have not heard of them or know much about them doesn't make them a lesser brand.

Farmtrac was brought down by poor management. Bill posted a great example of a once powerful International Harvester tractor company went down in flames also because of poor management during a hard time. Huge 1st tier brands can collapse also.

Spend some time learning about this industry and why things happen. It will give you a much better insight into what to buy instead of what your neighbor has or what brand you think is popular. I have no loyalty to Farmtrac or any other brand. I run all CNH equipment because I have dealers near by. Yet as long as I know where I can get parts easily I will add any brand to my farm if the numbers work out.

I know that if I buy a tractor from Kubota, JD, or CNH I won't have any problems with warranties, service and parts or finding a dealer. I still think your perceptions and opinions are worth no more than mine. You know what they say about opinions Bob...

 

[canoetrpr]

I suppose it is anyone's opinion as to what is 1st tier, 2nd tier and 3rd tier. For 1st tier (compacts), I doubt he is far off the mark in classifying them as JD, Kubota and CNH.

I have no hard data but I'll bet that those three make up the bulk of the sales for what you would classify as a CUT.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

I suppose it is anyone's opinion as to what is 1st tier, 2nd tier and 3rd tier. For 1st tier (compacts), I doubt he is far off the mark in classifying them as JD, Kubota and CNH.

I have no hard data but I'll bet that those three make up the bulk of the sales for what you would classify as a CUT.

I just find it funny that he considers Agco which is one of the largest ag companies in the world as a second tier company. He also excludes Case-IH by only naming New Holland even though they are basically the same tractor.

The only thing I can think of as to why he started this thread is to make himself feel better about buying a JD, Kubota or New Holland. His post show he has very little knowledge about this industry but wants things spelled out for him. I mean he could have bought a Yanmar built John Deere but then would that John Deere be a 2nd tier tractor because it was built by Yanmar My god, what will happen to our country if people find out that a John Deere tractor is really a 2nd tier tractor

But whatever this guy needs to do to make himself feel good about his tractor choice is up to him. Knocking every other brand is what it takes for some people

 

[Robert_in_NY]

If it's not a Kubota, JD or CNH it's something less than first tier...simple enough for you Bob?

What tractors are 2nd tier and which brands are 3rd tier. Please enlighten me so I can make an educated decision the next time I buy a tractor. Lord knows I could never lower myself to buy a 3rd tier so I need to know which is which.

And why do you refer to me as Bob? I don't really care but the only time I recall anyone referring to me as anything other then Robert on here is when they try to talk down to me. Is this the case or is Robert too many letters to type?

 

[Soundguy]

Hey.. maybee it's them chinese tractors that are 3rd.

Where'd MF'er go? I always lis them in the 'big 3'

soundguy