Comparing the 'orange' machines.

[TBDonnelly]

Now the real rub: I've learned more about the Kubota 1/4 inching valve in the last 30 minutes on the Kioti site of all places, than I have in a year on the Kubota side!

That's because the Kubota sales guys don't want to talk about it!

I'd bet there are many, many Kubota buyers out there that don't even realize what type of lift system they're getting.

Oh, BTW, welcome to the 'other' Orange forum.

Don

 

[IslandTractor]

Yeah, the other orange guys try to stay away from discussion about quarter inching valves just like we cringe at the mention of loader cracks . On the otherhand, I agree with Neil's point that most CUT owners who mostly mow with a MMM (lots of those on the B7510, 7610s) really don't have much use for the 3PT hitch much less worry about the type of hydraulic controls. That is not intended as a knock, just reflects the fact that a lot of guys who just want a bigger lawnmower will get the smaller B's. And they are great mowers so everyone is happy.

 

[davitk]

Hey, we're finally making sense!! I think it's terrific Kubota hangs onto their old tried and true designs, sells them as a dependable "value" tractor. Now, if you want to take Kubota to task, let's talk about their Grand L's.

 

[IslandTractor]

I have a lead on a 2006 CK30HST w/loader & Backhoe, asking $18.5K, less than 300 hrs, 'no commercial use'. Any suggestions on what to look for when looking at a used machine? Is there a 'how to buy used' FAQ around here somewhere? I looked quickly and didn't see one. I was going to look at loader, which one is it and are there any cracks, records to show fluids have been changed when they should have been, with what should be used. Condition of hydraulic cylinders, no nicks or bumps to mess up seals. General condition of machine. Seller implied balance of warrantee was transferable... does anybody know if it is? Is this reasonable money for a machine in good shape?

Thanks

Sorry, we skipped over your question while solving the worlds problems regarding 3PT hitch controls.

I think that is a decent price. Not great but decent. Knock off another $1500-2000 and it is a pretty good deal. You can get a new CK20 TLB for about 18.5 with 4 year warranty and zero percent financing so consider that in your deliberations. I'd do those comparative calculations real carefully as zero percent financing or the 1000 or so cash off the price of a new one can make a new tractor look real good. What do you want to do with the tractor? There are some uses for which the CK20 really is virtually the equivalent of the CK30 and other things where the CK30 obviously outclasses it's smaller sibling. BH is bigger by a foot I believe on the 30. I think loader work is about equal but pulling power and a bigger bush hog/mower would clearly favor the 30. CK20 is more manuverable but as you are talking TLB, manuverability may not a real big consideration.

300hrs is nothing if the tractor has been well maintained. Speaking of that, I'd look to see that it has been well greased (great if there is old grease squeezing out of the FEL pin joints. Check that all the grease zirks take grease (the front axle one is a bugger normally). Make sure the loader works smoothly and can lift the front end off the ground easily. It will be the old style loader so take off the inspection plate on the torque tube and look for cracks in the four corners (or near the gussets on the KL130 I guess). That would be a bargaining point as this cracked loader PITA has not yet been satisfactorily resolved by Kioti. Lord knows if they ever will deal with it. Check the HST pedal to make sure it works smoothly too. The BH controls are another area to work and insure they function smoothly. BH ideally would also be a bit greasy from routine grease application pushing old grease out. The FEL bucket may have some dings but hopefully is not bent or really bashed up. Maybe the guy changed oil/hydraulic just to sell but those should be fresh now anyway at 300hrs. Oil and hydraulic filters should also have been changed (I think every 100 or 150 on the hydraulic but I haven't checked). Tie rods sometimes get bend on stumps. Not a big deal but perhaps a bargaining point before you bend them back into shape.

Overall I think the CK30 TLB is a great machine. That one is not exactly cheap in my opinion but you might get the price down 10-15% or so and then it would probably look good compared to new with zero percent finance.

 

[johnk]

I think both Brands are great tractors but which one brings more for resale and which one sells faster? I'm just asking.

 

[Double Orange]

I think both Brands are great tractors but which one brings more for resale and which one sells faster? I'm just asking.

Let me think????

A Kubota with the 1/4" 3p/h
OR A
Kioti with a cracked loader???

 

[IXLR8]

Sorry, we skipped over your question while solving the worlds problems regarding 3PT hitch controls.

I think that is a decent price. Not great but decent. Knock off another $1500-2000 and it is a pretty good deal. You can get a new CK20 TLB for about 18.5 with 4 year warranty and zero percent financing so consider that in your deliberations.

Thanks for the feedback on what to look for, items have been added to my inspection list. Further communication with owner indicates that he only has 227hrs on it. Seems his new tractor came in sooner than he thought and he has not been using the CK30. He put the ad in assuming it would be in for a while and he would still be using the 30 and piling up the hrs. He also informed me the loader has a QA bucket, I need to find out more about that. I didn't know that a QA was available for the 130 loader. The BH has a 16" bucket with a thumb and he has tire chains for it, turns out the chains won't fit his new tractor. Price sounds a little better to me now, but I am still going to work on him a bit.
I did look at the CK20, I suspect it would do all of the stuff I need to do. Actually I know it would after looking at some of your pictures. I just like the feel of the CK25-35 series better and some of the little features they have that the 20 does not.

 

[IslandTractor]

He also informed me the loader has a QA bucket, I need to find out more about that. I didn't know that a QA was available for the 130 loader. The BH has a 16" bucket with a thumb and he has tire chains for it, turns out the chains won't fit his new tractor. Price sounds a little better to me now, but I am still going to work on him a bit.

If it has a universal skid steer QA adapter on the FEL that is worth (new) about $600 plus shipping and is very handy. It will allow you to add a grapple, tree boom, or forks easily and is a very nice upgrade. The thumb on the BH is also worth maybe $700 new so that is certainly nice too. Sounds like a very nice tractor set up.

 

[IXLR8]

If it has a universal skid steer QA adapter on the FEL that is worth (new) about $600 plus shipping and is very handy. It will allow you to add a grapple, tree boom, or forks easily and is a very nice upgrade. The thumb on the BH is also worth maybe $700 new so that is certainly nice too. Sounds like a very nice tractor set up.

IT- Didn't you have a QA but it was different sized than 'SS standard' and had some slop issues? Was it a Kioti QA or somebody elses? What is the width of a 'universal' SS QA adaptor?
Grrr... with the holidays, family in town and all, it looks like I will not be able to check this machine out until next week.

 

[IslandTractor]

IT- Didn't you have a QA but it was different sized than 'SS standard' and had some slop issues? Was it a Kioti QA or somebody elses? What is the width of a 'universal' SS QA adaptor?
Grrr... with the holidays, family in town and all, it looks like I will not be able to check this machine out until next week.

I had a Horst Welding standard/universal SS QA adapter on my CK20/KL120. Worked perfectly and is about 44 inches wide which is the real standard. I actually still have it even though I traded in my CK20...I was out tractoring in the country today and brought it back to the 'burbs to sell it. These will fit both the KL120 and 130 as they share the same pin pattern/measurements.

My current QA adapter is the standard one that comes with the Kioti KL401. It is only 40 inches wide and while it does in fact attach to universal SS devices, it slides around a bit because of the narrow width.

 

[art]

I understand your point however this is not really similar to the Kioti manufacturing problem/warranty problem with the loaders. It's about a basic tractor feature that Kubota chooses to use in order to drive customers who want a more advanced system to buy more expensive tractors. It is interesting that Art defends the quarter inching valve as the best way to control a grading device yet Kubota only puts it on their cheapest entry level tractors. No other major manufacturer uses quarter inching. It is certainly servicable, no one disputes that, but it is also pretty clearly a technology for controlling the 3PT that has long since been supplanted by position control. The Kubota dealers defend it because they have to in order to sell the B series but they don't like to admit that the system is slower and much less convenient than position control (which is standard on all other Kubota tractors including the lux B tractors). If some people really preferred it Kubota would offer it as an option on the higher priced tractors. They don't.

Sorry but Kubota is not the only one with it! It also happens that number two in compact tractor manufacturers is also using it!!! That company is Yanmar, I don't mean to burst your bubble but I guess some times we need to open our eyes and making statements here that are not true is not right! nobody can make you feel comfortable on a Kubota, so what! Then love your tractors but keep the facts, facts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So you don't know how to use it either from the initial statements you made earlier in this thread, there are others too that find the position control system more comfortable to use. Thats fine, everyone is different and intitled to be!
Next you can tell us you worked for Kubota when they came up with this ultimate marketing scheme and that is why you left working there!

By the way, when will they figure out they made there loaders to light or will it just be left to the consumer to fix?

 

[canoetrpr]

Ok Art:

Do you have a response to why Kubota only offers the 1/4 inching "feature" on their smaller tractors (and non luxury versions of those to boot - see B7800 vs B3030) and not the bigger Cadillacs of tractors - the Grand Ls?

I will agree 100% that the vast majority of owners of the 1/4 inching models won't know the difference. I don't think anyone will disagree that they would take a 1/4 inching (or 1 inching) valve over a cracked loader - any day of the week.

But for what application is it superior than a position control and why do those applications not apply to the more expensive (B3030 and L and Grand L and M series) tractors?

I'm neither an expert on Kubota or marketing but I think that Kubota would take the opportunity to offer it as an 'upgrade' if it were what you are suggesting it is.

 

[art]

The Japanese farmers are not option driven only function. The orient is the number one area for those size tractors to be sold in. I do believe that our numbers are gaining quickly. The larger tractors are more often sold out of that area and are built for different areas customer base. That is another part of the grey market tractors, that unless someone makes a good connection for supply of parts a consumer could take a chance of less support.

I'd like to have a dollar for everytime I was dissappointed as to where an option was available to someone else but not to us. I've also been lucky sometimes too!

In all industries it often is a smaller company that might show the flexibility in there designs to try a new system that might be totally different then the old standard and come up with something totally revolutionary to the industry. They also might just hold onto different systems because that is all they know and that will still bring comfort to some.

 

[IslandTractor]

Art knows his tractors and tractor history. No doubt. As I recall he is a long time Kubota dealer. He doesn't seem to want to answer the simple question posed several times however: If quarter inching is so great, why don't the fancier Kubotas (B2630, 3030, Grand L, M etc) even offer it as an option or as standard equipment?

He also points out that gray market Yanmars can be had with quarter inching. Probably true but the Yanmar built John Deeres certainly don't have quarter inching valves. They use position control like virtually every other tractor manufactured for the US market.

I will repeat again that quarter inching works and is perfectly reliable, no question about it but it is not superior to position control (OK, we'll give Art his point on grading...it would likely be easlier to make tiny changes reproducibly). However, despite Art's persistent and somewhat off the point defense, quarter inching is not nearly as convenient as position control for most functions. Maybe Kubota B owners don't care because, as Neil Messick often points out, they don't really use their 3PT hitches much. Fair enough. But it still is relevant for someone who does plan to buy a CUT to consider this issue and investigate it themselves rather than just accept a dealer's word that "it will be fine".

 

[TBDonnelly]

Art knows his tractors and tractor history. No doubt. As I recall he is a long time Kubota dealer. He doesn't seem to want to answer the simple question posed several times however: If quarter inching is so great, why don't the fancier Kubotas (B2630, 3030, Grand L, M etc) even offer it as an option or as standard equipment?

He also points out that gray market Yanmars can be had with quarter inching. Probably true but the Yanmar built John Deeres certainly don't have quarter inching valves. They use position control like virtually every other tractor manufactured for the US market.

This looks like some reverse smoke and mirrors marketing campaign for the 1/4 inching valve.

A Yanmar supplied CubCadet tractor has one model listed with 1/4" valving on their website. They only list one model Yanmar/Cub Cadet period. Course the parent company is MTD.

Don

 

[art]

Art knows his tractors and tractor history. No doubt. As I recall he is a long time Kubota dealer. He doesn't seem to want to answer the simple question posed several times however: If quarter inching is so great, why don't the fancier Kubotas (B2630, 3030, Grand L, M etc) even offer it as an option or as standard equipment?

He also points out that gray market Yanmars can be had with quarter inching. Probably true but the Yanmar built John Deeres certainly don't have quarter inching valves. They use position control like virtually every other tractor manufactured for the US market.

I will repeat again that quarter inching works and is perfectly reliable, no question about it but it is not superior to position control (OK, we'll give Art his point on grading...it would likely be easlier to make tiny changes reproducibly). However, despite Art's persistent and somewhat off the point defense, quarter inching is not nearly as convenient as position control for most functions. Maybe Kubota B owners don't care because, as Neil Messick often points out, they don't really use their 3PT hitches much. Fair enough. But it still is relevant for someone who does plan to buy a CUT to consider this issue and investigate it themselves rather than just accept a dealer's word that "it will be fine".

I did answer that question on why not on the other models! They don't use them that much in there area for that type of work compared to other markets so they don't use that system on them.

The Yanmars being sold by Cadet are built with a quarter inching valve, all three models up to the 3200 or 32 horsepower. Yanmar has taken the ball with MTD to build a good quality probuct that is built like the ones that were and still are the staple of the jd line and not jepodized by wall street profits.
They are not as such a bells and whistles tractor but one built solidly for longevity and overall job performance.


I like having the option of selling multiple brands to a degree, I've come to that because I haven't seen anyone machine that is built right for everyone!

This might also be the case here with the Kioti loader. I'm quite sure they tested it and it worked fine given there testing procedures and paramiters. The fact is it just didn't have enough reserve built into it to withstand the loads able to be generated by the hydraulic system to the potential weight of the load being applied. This is not new science here, it's not the first time and I don't know that it will be the last.
I'd certainly have issues if I had a customer with a weak loader as well as the quarter inching valve on a tractor now wouldn't I!

I know from watching the boards not everyone has had problems with these loaders, just like not all have had problems with the Kubota lift system.

That's the way they are built thats all that there is to it, they fit you or they don't. Kubota still sells more compacts then anyone else so they can't be all bad for everyone.

 

[IXLR8]

Still undecided about which 'orange' tractor to get. Went back to local Kubota dealer today, I really like the dealership. The Kubota dealer is 25 minutes away and the closest good Kioti dealer is 2.5 hrs away. Try as I might, I just couldn't find a machine that felt right to me. So I am back in the Kioti camp, I will just have to resolve myself to dealing with a dealer 2.5hrs away and no way for me to transport the tractor to them... not the ideal situation. On the other hand.. I did manage to get a TractorPort put up to house whatever tractor I get. I have it narrowed down my choices to a new CK25 or a one year old CK30 already set up exactly like I want, prices are similar.

Here is my TractorPort.

 

[IslandTractor]

I will just have to resolve myself to dealing with a dealer 2.5hrs away and no way for me to transport the tractor to them... not the ideal situation.

I am in a similar situation as my tractor is on an island and I have no simple means to get it to a dealer. In the past two plus years I've done all the service and dealt with a few minor warranty/breakage issues without any difficulty. A phone call to the dealer is all I need to get parts and supplies UPS'd. Frankly, having done the service myself, I don't think there is much reason to take a tractor back to a dealer unless there is a major breakdown which is quite unusual with modern tractors. A good dealer is still a plus however as there will be diagnostic issues when you encounter a malfunction. In one instance my four wheel drive stopped functioning and it took half an hour on the phone with the dealer to lead me through the various tests to determine where the problem was (brush had dislodged one of the electrical connectors). Doing that by phone rather than loading the tractor up on a trailer for a trip to a local dealer actually saved me time and money. If I really cannot deal with a problem then I have to either get a mechanic out to the island or arrange for a trailer/truck to come and transport it to a local dealer. That will cost me a few hundred bucks. The main point is that if you get comfortable doing your own fluid and filter changes, and you have a decent dealer who will talk you through any diagnostic tests for other problems then you can pretty much manage without a convenient dealer without much trouble.

 

[IXLR8]

A decision has been made.. after talking with SWMBO and what her needs might be. I am going for the used CK30HST. It has all the add-ons that I want already on it, seller wiggled a little on price and threw in a few extra's for free. It has the extra PTO power in case I decide to snowblow the road or borrow the neighbor's tiller to do the garden. Financing has been applied for... just waiting for their decision.
Worse part, assuming loan comes through... due to work and holiday plans... I can't have it delivered until after the first of the year, the wait will kill me.

 

[IslandTractor]

Great tractor even if it takes you a few more weeks to get some seat time. Congratulations.