compact TLB vs. full size TLB

[Builder]

First of all they haven't made the perfect tractor for all needs yet, and never will.

Seems like there's a lot of comparing apples to hand grenades here. For the construction guy who needs massive power, massive lifting, great we all know what machines they should own.

For the "others" yes get the smaller MORE USEFUL tractor that can do 75-80% of what you need to do, and either rent or contract out the other. For the average non contractor type, the small utility tractors are perfect, hence the reason most manufacturers are producing them when Kubota was one of the first many. many years ago.

I doesn't make sense to buy a full size tractor just to dig your foundation or septic, then be stuck with the beast for years to come or have to take a beating on selling it, or even the hassle of selling.

For me the Small Kubota with a backhoe was perfect, I dug 600 feet of trench four seperate times, and many other tasks. did I do them as fast as "the big boys" no, but for me it didn't matter, I'm not on a schedule.

Did I need more lifting or power, you bet, when I had to clear 4 acres of trees, so I rented dozer, and did it it in eight hours, for $800.00 - and not even the big loaders could have accomplished that task.

So buy a long range usage tractor, one that will do the "most" and rent for the extra oomph, if you need it.

I used to hate renting, now I’m a huge fan of renting. Also contracting out is my new best friend. To mulch the four acres I was quoted $100.00 per hour for four guys, a chipper, and a dump truck. Even I couldn’t beat that on my own, renting just the equipment.

Oh, and yes mine was out in the 117 degree plus sun, at times 365 days a year, for almost 10 years before I sold it, with no problems, not even a rotten belt or hose.

Something tells me our thread starter is gonna spend a heck of a lot more than $800 in rentals to get his house foundation and septic system and driveway dug if he buys an L-48!

Probably more like $8,000-$18,000.

Lookie here guys: 5 months ago, before I bought my Case, I bid on (2) 1-acre building lots intending to build 2 houses. I got a price from an excavator I play golf with to put in 2 driveways, 2 septic systems, 2 foundations and 2 rainwater retention systems and backfill/grade (2) 1 acre building lots. Total cost $40,000 + !

That's why I bought my Case backhoe! I said "screw this" I'm going out and getting another full size backhoe. I spent just a little over what the excavator would have charged me for 2 houses! Now I can do all the excavation work myself AND keep the machine for many years to come!

My guess is our thread starter will spend $15,000-$20,000 hiring a professional to clear trees, cut a long driveway and dig the foundation & septic system cause even if he spends $30-$40 grand on a L-48, it won't be able to do the big jobs.

So now our guy has spent $30-$40 grand on a small backhoe that will basically be used for backfilling, a few trenches and some other small stuff.

I say buy the big TLB to handle the big expensive stuff and buy a $10,000 used farm tractor for the small stuff, or sell the full size TLB when he's done with it. Chances are it won't depreciate more than a few grand yet it will save him at least $15-$20 grand because it can do the big work an L-48 just can't ever do.

 

[plowking]

That wouldn't be a bad price up in NH. The septics can run 10,000 or more with availability of septic sand and other materials. One acre building lot here could require a shared septic. One subdivision has 2-4 houses per septic. It is an aeration system. The special septic tank for unit costs 6000.00 dollars. Wells for water require a buffer from septics unless central water supply. Some banks won't lend money to buyers of houses with shared services. plowking

 

[JPCjr]

Wow, there is a lot of information here. I appreciate everyone's input. I've read every post 3 times now.

A few more random bits of info after reading through all of this:

I've got a riding mower and don't plan on having any more grass than it can handle. Whatever I buy won't be used for cutting grass.

The pole barn I'll build will be able to house a full size backhoe also, so storage is not an issue.

I'm 100% sure that the profesionals can accomplish what I'd like to have done much faster than I can. I spent a few years working as an electrical contractor, so I know the importance of chasing the fast buck and not the last buck. However, in this case I'm doing the exact oposite. I've got a vision for what I want the house/land to look like and I want to take my time and do it right. Like AlanB, I like doing my own work, even if it takes longer. At least it will be the way I want it in the end. And in general, I really enjoy construction work. On the other hand, like Builder suggests I don't want to spend $30-40k on a L48, only to end up spending almost as much in rental fees or even hiring out the majority of the work. I'd like to save money by doing the work myself, not the other way around.

 

[Builder]

I've got a vision for what I want the house/land to look like and I want to take my time and do it right. Like AlanB, I like doing my own work, even if it takes longer. At least it will be the way I want it in the end. And in general, I really enjoy construction work. On the other hand, like Builder suggests I don't want to spend $30-40k on a L48, only to end up spending almost as much in rental fees or even hiring out the majority of the work. I'd like to save money by doing the work myself, not the other way around.

Exactly. I can tell you right now, if you try to do what I think you're gonna do with an L-48, you'll just end up hiring or renting bigger machinery to do the work while your 35-40K L-48 just sits on the porch & watches the big boys get the job done.

Then when there's an opportunity for it to do some work, you'll use it, but I get the idea that's not what you set out to do.

Or you can buy a big TLB that probably won't have to sit on the porch, it'll always be able to be in the game unless you hit HUGE rock.

 

[capt_met]

for the thread starters uses i have to agree with builder. i feel i could do all the work he needs to do but it definitly would take longer. for the work i do with a compact tlb the L48 didn't impress me at all. i don't mean this as a swipe at the machine because it is obvious it fits a niche for many. just not me. it is shame also because our local dealer is a great guy and would be great to do bussiness with.
another consideration in the ctlb vs. tlb arguement is weight. i like to joke and say i am an ankle biter in the excavation bussiness, just starting out. most of the jobs i am doing are the ones no one else wants because they are too small. i am able to string a couple together for a good day rarely am i on jobs that more than a couple days. this makes it very easy to move around with my one ton truck and when working on a homeowners yard i am not running an 8ton machine across his grass. usually i leave no marks at all. in new home building this isn't as much of an issue. but again i take whatever i can get to keep the jobs rolling in. also on the smaller jobs fuel consumption is another way to save. i guess if it is to dig a trench to run a new sewer line 60" long the full size machine would do it faster but would also burn more fuel getting there and doing the job, make a bigger mess and have a harder time dodging trees or lanscaping. and for a 4 ft deep trench i'm not sure the speed would make it enough better for this job to cover the downsides. each has a place and a purpose.
still the dream is to have a jd 310j with all the amenities. but so far i can't justify it. hopefully within 2 years i will be shopping. AC would sure be nice these hot august days.
good luck with your decision,

 

[mike69440]

Exactly. I can tell you right now, if you try to do what I think you're gonna do with an L-48, you'll just end up hiring or renting bigger machinery to do the work while your 35-40K L-48 just sits on the porch & watches the big boys get the job done.

Then when there's an opportunity for it to do some work, you'll use it, but I get the idea that's not what you set out to do.

Or you can buy a big TLB that probably won't have to sit on the porch, it'll always be able to be in the game unless you hit HUGE rock.

Builder,
I thought I was through with hiring out until I figured I was still 4' to 2-1/2 ft high over the whole yard and foundation area.

That amount of work would be a real challenge for a full size TLB. Even with the PC75 excavator, it would surely kill the L39. That much volume would be work for my excavator also. So I will hire out a Rock Truck, Dozer and Excavator.
At least I have a good use for this material. I will build a 28' X 36' or 38' storage building for building materials and my equipment on a pad from the moved spoils.

I still have long list of tonnes of work for both my machines so they will not "sit on the porch" for sure.

 

[JPCjr]

I can see the advantages of using a excavator/dozer combo, but I think since I'm not really in a rush, this may be the best approach for me:

...
I say buy the big TLB to handle the big expensive stuff and buy a $10,000 used farm tractor for the small stuff, ...

Now, where do I learn more about full size TLBs? Is there a tbn for backhoes? I'll start by looking through this forum. I'm sure there's plenty of good info here.

 

[jmfox]

The holy grail of one size fits all is much sought in many venues. I did consider a TLB before I went with the compact track machine, and I know that things are improved since I worked with the old MASSEY-FERGUSON, but I can't forget how clumsy it was to get through the day with all those assets hanging off both ends. It was a real boat in both directions and generally too high for any woods work. I felt like a one man band no matter the job. Call me crazy, but if the machine doesn't make it easier and more fun, I'd rather hire it out or do it by hand. Here's the difference between us, I enjoy the process. If you just want to get er done, then go with the tried and true full size TLB.

jmf

 

[White Shark]

I do a lot of tight excavation and grade work and wanted to get two specialty machines instead of a middle of the road / do it all machine.

I bought a CAT 247B tracked skidsteer and we currently rent excavators, but are about to pick up a Komatsu PC-35. They run the same price together as a CAT 420E backhoe, but they can do so much more as individual units.

Now having said that, if I could only own 1 machine, it would be a backhoe. Especially if I were using it on acreage. Why? Tons of breakout power on the hoe, high speed travel around the property, lots of loader capacity, and the ability to pick up a used one really cheap. They are near indestructible under basic farm usage and parts are easy to get.

I almost bought a L48 and it's a nice machine, but they just aren't built for the heavy construction trade. I've used a Case 580K backhoe in an industrial setting that had 11,000 hours on it. That thing has been abused during it's entire existence, but it keeps on running. You can pick one up for a low price with just a few thousand hours and they usually hold up well.

A lot of cities buy them for snow removal and general maintenance, but they get little use. My buddy picked one up that had been used by a city in Washington. It only had 300 hours on it and he picked it up in next to mint condition for $30,000. The thing practically still had the dealer sticker in the window! They bought it for snow removal in city parking lots, but it rarely snowed, so they sold it. Score!

My general rule is to look at the job you have and buy the next larger machine that will still fit in the operating space you are working in. Gauge your work load and size up one notch. Good luck.

..

 

[coopers]

. My buddy picked one up that had been used by a city in Washington....They bought it for snow removal in city parking lots, but it rarely snowed, so they sold it. Score!

HAHA, that's funny! No snow in this state except east of the cascades and even that isn't that much.

. Now, where do I learn more about full size TLBs? Is there a tbn for backhoes? I'll start by looking through this forum. I'm sure there's plenty of good info here.

There should be good info out there but you can also touch base at HeavyEquiptmentForums.Com also. A lot of contractors there that can help you compare a Case vs. a Deere vs. a Cat etc. etc. Personally you're going to find an older Case running much better than other brands out there, Deere being second in my opinion. Not sure on your budget but there are some good 580K's and 580L's out there still in good condition, and if you have to go older Case is still running strong.

Blake
WA

 

[Builder]

I can see the advantages of using a excavator/dozer combo, but I think since I'm not really in a rush, this may be the best approach for me:
Now, where do I learn more about full size TLBs? Is there a tbn for backhoes? I'll start by looking through this forum. I'm sure there's plenty of good info here.

Like Coopers said, Heavy Equipment Forums is a place to start. It's a small site with more "kids" (wannabees/keyboard excavators) than needed, but there's also some true excavators there that can help.

Best thing for you to do is write down your needs: How deep will you dig? What type of digging? How much weight will you need to lift? What are your expectations? What is your budget? etc., then pick out the best machine.

The mistake I read with the most consistency is guys buy too SMALL of a machine (me included). I keep finding myself upgrading in size, capability & comfort in trucks & equipment. That will cost you money & lots of time spent searching for a bigger piece if you have to do it twice.

I've read your needs and believe it or not, know more about what you want to do than you know.
Buying an L-48 would be cost the same as a big used TLB and the work would seem darn near impossible.

I like Mike's input. It sounds like he started a job similar to what you're doing and discovered lots of big ROCK. He adapted and bought an excavator because the small TLB wasn't enough. Make sure you know your property well enough to pick the right machine. If you buy a big TLB and hit rock, you can get a rock hammer for it.

 

[JPCjr]

I'll check out heavy equipment forums, thanks.

I was planning on buying a new L48, although that is really more than I wanted to spend.

I looked around last night at FS TLB, and you're right there are plenty of used ones out there for reasonable prices.

I have no doubt that you know more about what I'm trying to do that I do. That's why started this thread and I'm now pretty convinced that the L48 is not the right tool. And yes, a big attraction of a FS TLB is the ability to use a rock hammer, which I may need.

I kind of like White Sharks approach. A tracked skidsteer and a small excavator. Hmmmm... What are your thoughts on that?

 

[jmfox]

I kind of like White Sharks approach. A tracked skidsteer and a small excavator. Hmmmm... What are your thoughts on that?

I vote yes. With that combination you will have the right tool for the most jobs.

jmf

 

[EddieWalker]

How much money is in the budget for the tractor?

The problem you run into with the full sized backhoes is the lack of the three point hitch. This was really an issue for me when I was trying to decide what to buy. I had a certain amount of money to spend and thought I wanted one machine to do it all. That turned out to be impossible.

With $30,000 I bought a used 1998 2wd Ford 555E backhoe for $18,000 and a new 35hp Century 4wd CUT with a 6ft bush hog, 6ft box blade and 12 post hole digger.

With those two tractors, I can pretty much do anything on my land. There is no tree too big that I can't take down, and no hole that in time, I can't dig. I created my 3/4 acre pond with the backhoe and spent many months hauling dirt with the front bucket one yard at a time.

If I had more money and new then what I know now, I would have bought a backhoe with 4wd. If I had a little more money then that, I really want a 4 in 1 bucket to pick up those trees and bush piles. And if I really had some extra money, a cab would sure make life allot more comfortable!!!

35hp is about right for mowing and maintaining the land. More power is always nice to have, but I'm not realy needing it.

The biggest differnece that I didn't see mentioned in this thread between the full sized backhoes and compact ones is power. For about the same money, you are either buying 80hp or half that. You are also buying hydraulic systems that are not even close to each other in what they can handle. The full sized machine can dig a 2 foot wide backoe bucket through just about any soil type with ease. The compact will get it done with a 12 inch bucket and struggle with an 18 inch one. Digging times with the hoe buckets will probably be about four times as fast, if not more with the full sized hoe.

The same is true with the front loader. One yard might sound like allot of dirt until you start moving hundreds and thousands of yards of dirt. Then it makes a HUGE difference how much you can move at a time. That 1/3 yard bucket on the CUT isn't just going to take three times as long to move becasue teh bucket is smaller, it's going to take longer to do because the tractor is smaller and it can't keep up speed wise.

When you're done with the full sized machine, you can sell it for almost what you paid for it. Four years after buying mine, I just saw one for sale with similar hours for $1,000 more then what I paid for it at the same dealer I bought mine.

Eddie

 

[Builder]

I vote yes. With that combination you will have the right tool for the most jobs.

jmf

Not a bad idea, but inevitably, it will cost more. You can get a nice cab/air 4x4 f/s BH with extendahoe for $25-$30K.

You would have a tough time finding an excavator that digs as deep as an big TLB extendahoe and a skid steer with a bucket that lifts 7,000lbs for under $25-30K. Then there's the issue of 2 engines, 2 transmissions, 2 fuel tanks, more tires, tracks, filters, hydraulic lines, etc. to buy, maintain & insure.

I'd also doubt highly both or either the excavator or the skid steer will have cabs with A/C.

Another thing that's nicer about the big TLB over the excav/skid steer combo is the backhoe has a more spacious cab and a much higher top speed when moving from one part of the property to the other. A skid steer has a brutal ride over rough ground and a trackhoe is slow as molasses. The big TLB can also work in rain & snow much better than an open skid steer. Almost any attachment you can put on a skid steer can be put on a gig TLB.

 

[jmfox]

Frankly, I'm glad I made my choice these things could go on forever. Two machines would also mean a better chance of always having one running. Also, carring around a backhoe and front bucket hardware for every single task, whether you need them or not, is a pain in the butt after awhile. Disconnecting a backhoe from a TLB is not exactly a 2 minute job.

jmf

 

[coopers]

You would have a tough time finding an excavator that digs as deep as an big TLB extendahoe and a skid steer with a bucket that lifts 7,000lbs for under $25-30K. Then there's the issue of 2 engines, 2 transmissions, 2 fuel tanks, more tires, tracks, filters, hydraulic lines, etc. to buy, maintain & insure.

...is the backhoe has a more spacious cab and a much higher top speed when moving from one part of the property to the other. A skid steer has a brutal ride over rough ground and a trackhoe is slow as molasses. The big TLB can also work in rain & snow much better than an open skid steer. Almost any attachment you can put on a skid steer can be put on a gig TLB.

Very true. These are great combos on other types of jobs but for a large piece of property it wouldn't be the best choice. When you're looking for a compact excavator I wouldn't go below 10,000lbs and the machine that I use as an example is a Kubota 121. The 121-2's are the older models and they're still pushing $20K. In my opinion that size is pushing it for 10 acres. You'd want bigger. Then you have the skidsteer you need to purchase as well and they still are high in price.

Like Eddie mentioned you'll find yourself moving a lot of yards of material and a one yard bucket is bad enough why go smaller with a skidsteer bucket or a CUT bucket. Now if you have the money-I like Eddies set up-I would buy a used backhoe and a tractor with a three point hitch. All these ideas are great, and we understand you're not in too terribly a big hurry but you also don't want to take 5 years on a 1 year project. I have this attached picture of one of the two backhoes I used on a 10 acre nursery doing ALL kinds of tasks. The extendahoe and thumb additions to a backhoe are a MUST. My (then) boss made this thumb himself. He did order it from Amulet but it was right when the San Fransisco earthquakes hit (shows you how old the machine is and how long he's had it) so they sent all their thumbs down there to help with cleanup, so he just made the thumb based on their plan it worked great.

At any rate, I'd start comparing between large TLB's (and I think you're doing that now) and keep in mind extendahoe and later addition of a mechanical thumb (and I recommend this type...Amulet, it functions better then other mechanical thumbs out there IMO). Cabs are always nice but you'll survive. I've been in nasty weather before and you just deal with it. If you find yourself falling behind or just coming up to a project that seems an excavator would be better suited for then you can rent one, it's very simple.

Blake

 

[machmeter62]

Exactly. I can tell you right now, if you try to do what I think you're gonna do with an L-48, you'll just end up hiring or renting bigger machinery to do the work while your 35-40K L-48 just sits on the porch & watches the big boys get the job done.

Then when there's an opportunity for it to do some work, you'll use it, but I get the idea that's not what you set out to do.

Or you can buy a big TLB that probably won't have to sit on the porch, it'll always be able to be in the game unless you hit HUGE rock.

What size of a "slush fund" for break-downs resulting in on site repairs, service calls, and transportation expensives for a used full size TLB's, would one set aside? I have talked to others that purchased used for similar projects; but maybe they were "snake-bit," or maybe abused the tractor? I understand FS TLB's are pricey to repair if internal problems develop; and can destroy your bank account!?

 

[JPCjr]

Thanks guys.

I think I'm going to focus on a FS TLB and a smaller tractor later for 3pt hitch work. That seems to be the best option.

As far as a budget, I was prepared to buy a new L48, but that was really a little more than I wanted to spend. It would be nice if I could spend around $30k or even a little less on the TLB. I'm also curious to see the answer to machmeter62's question.

I would rather get a newer machine then have a cab. I'm sure a cab is nice, but in general the weather here isn't that bad. The winters are tollerable, as we've hardly had any snow the last couple of years, and the summer heat doesn't really bother me.

 

[Builder]

Thanks guys.

I think I'm going to focus on a FS TLB and a smaller tractor later for 3pt hitch work. That seems to be the best option.

As far as a budget, I was prepared to buy a new L48, but that was really a little more than I wanted to spend. It would be nice if I could spend around $30k or even a little less on the TLB. I'm also curious to see the answer to machmeter62's question.

I would rather get a newer machine then have a cab. I'm sure a cab is nice, but in general the weather here isn't that bad. The winters are tollerable, as we've hardly had any snow the last couple of years, and the summer heat doesn't really bother me.

When i bought my Case, i was lucky that it still has 3 yrs of powertrain warranty left. The "bumper to bumper" warranty expires in a few weeks.

If you're really scared of a big repair, and your budget was $40,000 for a new L-48, then buy a $35,000 case/deere/cat and set $5,000 aside for repairs. My guess is you won't need them. These full size TLB's are tough as nails, especially Case/Cat/deere.

You could spend less and get more hoe for the money if you were willing to try a JCB, terex or Komatsu. They cost less because they have a percieved inferiority in terms of resale or quality. You can generally get those 3 brands for 5-10K less than a cat/case/deere and set aside even more $$$ for repairs.

That might be a great fit for you. I really can't see you destroying any big TLB with what you're doing. JCB & Terex makes really tough, albeit "tier-2" backhoes that you can buy for peanuts.

Look at this Terex 760 for $32,500. Makes an L-48 look like a sandbox toy. 2003 TEREX 760 For Sale at MachineryTrader.com

1997 JCB 214 II For Sale at MachineryTrader.com

Bargain Komatsu: 2003 KOMATSU WB150 For Sale at MachineryTrader.com