compact TLB vs. full size TLB

[JPCjr]

I recently purchased 10 acres of land that my fiancée and I plan on using for a home site. The land has some hills and a steep, but walkable slope down toward a creek. We plan on making the home site at the top of the slope so that we can have a walkout basement, but still be in a flat enough area to avoid constructing a house on the side of a hill. The driveway to the house will be about 750 ft. maybe a little more. Currently, there are no improvements to the land and it's mostly mature pine and hardwood trees. My plan is to put in a driveway (which will need 1 small culvert), have a well drilled, build a pole barn, install a septic system, put an RV near/in the barn, and then start on the house. Once the house is finished, I'll be maintaining the driveway, possibly planting a garden, and possibly putting in a small pond. I don't plan on having a large yard with a lot of grass to cut. I'm planning on doing most of the work myself, even the basement excavation for the house. However, I have a feeling that I'll encounter some very large rocks will need a large excavator. If that's the case, I'll probably hire it out.

After reading this site almost daily for the past 6 months or so, I'm strongly leaning towards picking up a Kubota L48, box blade, and chipper and going to work. However, after reading Builder's posts, I'm starting to wonder if I should be looking at a used full size backhoe. One of the reasons I was leaning towards the L48 is because of the 3pt hitch, which will come in handy for a chipper, box blade, and a tiller later down the road. Also, I have a F250, so I could still haul the L48 when/if I needed to. If I had a full size backhoe, it would be stuck at the land. So, my question is this: Is it possible for me to install a driveway, do the dirt work for a pole barn, install a septic system, and possibly excavate a basement with a L48? Keep in mind that I'm doing this for me, not for a profit and I'm not in a huge rush. If I can still get everything done, but it will just take a little long with the L48, then that's ok. If it's not possible to do what I want, or it will take 10 times longer, then that's not ok. I guess the more generic question is what are the advantages/disadvantages of a compact TLB vs. a full size backhoe.

Thanks in advance for the input. This site is a wealth of information and has been a huge help for me.

 

[Builder]

I recently purchased 10 acres of land that my fiancée and I plan on using for a home site. The land has some hills and a steep, but walkable slope down toward a creek. We plan on making the home site at the top of the slope so that we can have a walkout basement, but still be in a flat enough area to avoid constructing a house on the side of a hill. The driveway to the house will be about 750 ft. maybe a little more. Currently, there are no improvements to the land and it's mostly mature pine and hardwood trees. My plan is to put in a driveway (which will need 1 small culvert), have a well drilled, build a pole barn, install a septic system, put an RV near/in the barn, and then start on the house. Once the house is finished, I'll be maintaining the driveway, possibly planting a garden, and possibly putting in a small pond. I don't plan on having a large yard with a lot of grass to cut. I'm planning on doing most of the work myself, even the basement excavation for the house. However, I have a feeling that I'll encounter some very large rocks will need a large excavator. If that's the case, I'll probably hire it out.

After reading this site almost daily for the past 6 months or so, I'm strongly leaning towards picking up a Kubota L48, box blade, and chipper and going to work. However, after reading Builder's posts, I'm starting to wonder if I should be looking at a used full size backhoe. One of the reasons I was leaning towards the L48 is because of the 3pt hitch, which will come in handy for a chipper, box blade, and a tiller later down the road. Also, I have a F250, so I could still haul the L48 when/if I needed to. If I had a full size backhoe, it would be stuck at the land. So, my question is this: Is it possible for me to install a driveway, do the dirt work for a pole barn, install a septic system, and possibly excavate a basement with a L48? Keep in mind that I'm doing this for me, not for a profit and I'm not in a huge rush. If I can still get everything done, but it will just take a little long with the L48, then that's ok. If it's not possible to do what I want, or it will take 10 times longer, then that's not ok. I guess the more generic question is what are the advantages/disadvantages of a compact TLB vs. a full size backhoe.

Thanks in advance for the input. This site is a wealth of information and has been a huge help for me.

IMO, I think what you'll find on this site is a very rabid, defensive posture when it comes to Kubota TLB's since this is the place all their owner/lovers hang out. I think they're under the dilusion that a Kubota TLB could build a dam across the Mississippi if you asked they're very proud of their machines and they have the right to be.

There's only a couple full size backhoe owners here, me being one. I build houses & additions for a living and have been for 20 years. I hope that makes me qualified to answer your question more than a landscaper or hobby farmer. I owned a Ford 555 4x4 extravator (extendahoe) and I used it to dig all my house full basements, septic systems and rainwater retention systems, driveways, garages, rock walls, rip-rap, etc from 1992-ish to 1999. I sold it and bought a Kubota L-35. I tried one big foundation with it and broke both front axle spindles and bent the FEL bucket, then waited weeks for the parts. I finished the foundation by borrowing my Ford 555 from the guy I sold it to while the Kubota L-35 sat on jackstands.

What a mistake. Then to make matters worse, I bought another Kubota L-39 this time, thinking I would just rent a excavator or full size when I needed it. What a hassle. Now I've got one small one sitting around and one full size rental killing my wallet.

Finally I wised-up and bought my case 580 and couldn't feel better about it.

If I were in your situation, I'd suggest buying a full size to do the big, heavy work. The when that phase is completed, sell the full size and buy a smaller TLB to do your landscape/light work and 3 pt hitch work.

Don't bring a knife to a gunfight. Remember, the right tool for the right job.

Show me a guy who excavates septic systems, foundations, etc for a living with a L-48, and I'll show you 100 that use a full size backhoe or an excavator/skid steer combo.

 

[art]

I'd have to say in general I agree with builder. It's not that you couldn't do it with an L-48 given time and patience but if you don't have that then your in trouble.

In the real world about a 20 ton excavator and a 8 ton dozer would be good to rent for about a day or two maybe a week and then an L-48 could handle the rest with ease and not have hurt it from being around for the next twenty years!

 

[JPCjr]

IMO, I think what you'll find on this site is a very rabid, defensive posture when it comes to Kubota TLB's since this is the place all their owner/lovers hang out. I think they're under the dilusion that a Kubota TLB could build a dam across the Mississippi if you asked they're very proud of their machines and they have the right to be.

There's only a couple full size backhoe owners here, me being one. I build houses & additions for a living and have been for 20 years. I hope that makes me qualified to answer your question more than a landscaper or hobby farmer. I owned a Ford 555 4x4 extravator (extendahoe) and I used it to dig all my house full basements, septic systems and rainwater retention systems, driveways, garages, rock walls, rip-rap, etc from 1992-ish to 1999. I sold it and bought a Kubota L-35. I tried one big foundation with it and broke both front axle spindles and bent the FEL bucket, then waited weeks for the parts. I finished the foundation by borrowing my Ford 555 from the guy I sold it to while the Kubota L-35 sat on jackstands.

What a mistake. Then to make matters worse, I bought another Kubota L-39 this time, thinking I would just rent a excavator or full size when I needed it. What a hassle. Now I've got one small one sitting around and one full size rental killing my wallet.

Finally I wised-up and bought my case 580 and couldn't feel better about it.

If I were in your situation, I'd suggest buying a full size to do the big, heavy work. The when that phase is completed, sell the full size and buy a smaller TLB to do your landscape/light work and 3 pt hitch work.

Don't bring a knife to a gunfight. Remember, the right tool for the right job.

Show me a guy who excavates septic systems, foundations, etc for a living with a L-48, and I'll show you 100 that use a full size backhoe or an excavator/skid steer combo.

Yes, you're certainly qualified and I appreciate your input. I probably wouldn't even be considering a full size backhoe had I not read your posts. At first I thought you were just against Kubota, but I think I see where you're coming from now.

Thanks.

 

[jmfox]

Ford tractors are a tough act to follow. Kubota is a good gentleman's tool for weekend chores, albeit serious chores, but part-time just the same. My dad bought a new Ford 4000 in 1962. We used it daily in a commercial landscaping business and I still use it today. It was always available -a given. It pulled, scraped, plowed, planted, transported, and saved a variety of tractors, trucks, cars, jeeps and lesser machines from a muddy end 24/7. We rebuilt the motor only once during those years and it gets attention about every 4 years when I change the oil filter just to say thank you.

jmf

 

[JPCjr]

I'd have to say in general I agree with builder. It's not that you couldn't do it with an L-48 given time and patience but if you don't have that then your in trouble.

In the real world about a 20 ton excavator and a 8 ton dozer would be good to rent for about a day or two maybe a week and then an L-48 could handle the rest with ease and not have hurt it from being around for the next twenty years!

I've got the time and the patience, but at the same time I don't want to turn a 1 month project into a 1 year project.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Builder is right on the money again! Once you get used to the the fullsize TLB the Kubota would seem like a complete waste of time. After a week on a Cat 420 D 4X4 extendahoe with a 4n1 bucket I never looked at our Kubota the same way The TLB and a medium size skid would be more than adequate for a place of 10 acres and you would find more uses than you can imagine.

 

[BarryinMN]

Hey builder I was in town today & saw kids walking across the Mississippi on the rocks - real dry here.

We have had a 1970 Allis Chalmers 60 HP TLB 14' class here on the farm since 1980. It has been used for all you list and also did the digging for relatives home & barn, road sites, etc.

It is still being used today to clear relatives lakefront lots. It is no longer the only loader tractor here - in '04 I picked up a new cabbed loader ag tractor for snow removal & ag tasks putting our venerable JD A into semi-retirement.

With the fast tech support and parts availability from internet sites buying decent shape older used equipment makes sense. A little mechanical savvy plus retired mechanics on the web go a long way.

 

[coopers]

I'd take into consideration what builder said and what others have said along the same lines. Ten acres is plenty to use a full size backhoe on. If you get an extendahoe your good to go. You can even think of putting a thumb on it at some point to make life a little easier. Once you have totally exhausted all your work with a full size backhoe you can sell it and keep a smaller TLB like a Kubota around to do various projects/land maintenance here and there that come up. But you would certainly be dragging things out by attempting all those projects with a smaller L48. Now to stir the pot more an excavator and dozer will go even quicker in clearing and digging and preparing the land but both are very expensive to purchase and maintain. A backhoe in your case is perfect.

Oh, and don't forget to buy Case! :-D

Blake
WA

 

[Builder]

Builder is right on the money again! Once you get used to the the fullsize TLB the Kubota would seem like a complete waste of time. After a week on a Cat 420 D 4X4 extendahoe with a 4n1 bucket I never looked at our Kubota the same way The TLB and a medium size skid would be more than adequate for a place of 10 acres and you would find more uses than you can imagine.

If I had VERY little money to spend on tools and wanted to build my own little paradise on 10 acres, the first tool in my arsenal would be a used full size 4x4 backhoe.

An old CASE 4x4 580 series, Deere or even a Ford/NH, or CAT would be the most reliable, dependable, versatile single machine you could possibly buy for digging ground & trenches, uprooting trees & roots, spreading stone, etc.

You could find a very nice used Case 580 Super K 4x4 with a cab for under $25K or a Super L with a cab for under $30K. Either will do twice the work of a new or used L-48/39. Heck a used L-48 is gonna run you $25,000. New L-48 is gonna pull close to $40,000!! Even an old Case 4x4 will do twice the work. You have to realize the smaller used TLBs are more expensive because of their small size. They actually know you need a small machine and they kill you for it. OTOH, there's so many used full size TLB's out there there's legitimate price competition for your business! You'll get a better deal.

Lookie here: eBay: 1987 580K CASE BACKHOE- VERY LOW HOURS -4x4 (item 270142886140 end time Jul-14-07 09:27:02 PDT)

With a cab, you can work in bad elements or plow the driveway in the winter a lot more comfortably than an open ROPS L-48 Don't be afraid of the size, you'll get used to it in one day!

 

[art]

Just my thoughts on a better investment of time and money for you. If you were to take some time off, rent the excavator and not the standard backhoe as they don't compete with them for digging ability. Also rent a dozer for your grading work.

Digging into the bank for a foundation with the excavator with full circulation to dump behind you with a dozer to grade it would be the fastest. In between coould be making runs on teh pole barn area. If you have a good friend that could run the dozer you have less then a days work!

Then buy the compact that could do everything else like back filling the foundation and the normal grading and small backhoe work. Depending on what you would like to use for a mower that would tell you how big of a base tractor you would need. You have to remember that if you spend the 25,000 for the big TLB it would still take close to a week for prep and then it will sit, how about storage?

I haven't checked the rates lately but even to have a pro do that in our area you wouldn't spend but about 2000 for two men and machines for the day and you should be assured that the grades are right.

 

[yekrut]

Heck - Might as well throw my limited perspective out there. Will preface this with I have no experience with a full size TBL other than substantial observation. I come at this from a non-profit homeowner perspective. I have about 15 acres with a wide variety a jobs needing done. I recently went through a process of evaluating what would give me the biggest bang for the buck both short and long term. I considered, as suggested by others here at TBN purchasing a Full sized TBL for heavy work and then down sizing to a more utility sized machine. Just didn't make sense for me. Turning equipment around is easy to talked about but seldom is hassle free and can be very time consuming. There is also other things to consider related to used Full size TBLs. Mainenance, Transportation, Storage to name a few and in my situation those added to the bottom line. (Total cost of ownership -including my time). I absolutely agree that compact TBLs won't be a productive as Full size TBL. In my case a compact TBL seemed like my best choice. I have had it over 2 weeks and have just over 50 hrs. on it and I'm alot further along with my work than I thought I'd be. It's been quite an efficient machine (Kubota L39). I have had a few problems related to user error. Twisted the quick attach couplers with the bucket on because I popped one side of the bucket off. Must not of put in on correctly. Dealer replaced it the next day. Also broke a fan belt cuz a branch shot up through the bottom and nicked it. Just had to replace the belt. A good dealer is worth there weight in gold. Bottom line is what's going to work for your specific needs. I think for most homeowners with land a CTBL is quite versatile and productive. I'm sure a Full Size TBL is much more valuable to professional contractors. I think that's why they make them .

Just a note on why I chose the Kubota. Never owned one before. Been a JD guy. Read lots on TBN post all helpful etc... Was considering JD 110 and others but probably the biggest contributing factor was Rental companies. I don't know if Kubota's paying these guys or what . Prior to my purchase I rented a mini exc. (Bobcat 334). I was looking at rental places in the area to see what was available. The 3 places I went I asked them about what's the most reliable productive piece of equipment they had. All 3 said the Kubota TBLs. 2 used the term "bulletproof" and the other was a service guy (happened to be a Leppo rents place that sells bobcat). I was asking him if they ever sell use equipment. Without hesitation he says "don't tell anyone here, but I'd go buy a Kubota TBL. I just bought a CUT and they make good stuff". That really stuck with me.

 

[Builder]

What's the big deal about "storage" of a full size TLB?

You guys pamper your Kubotas like they were your dad's antique Ford farm tractor or something

Leave it outside, or if it really bothers you, throw a tarp over it. These big TLB's are tough, they can take being left outside! I think he's building a pole barn, I'm assuming he'll have enough room for a backhoe, but if he doesn't just throw a tarp over it. It ain't a Lotus sports car.

Transportation shouldn't be a problem since he's going to use the machine on the same jobsite.

From what he's posted, it sounds like he wants to buy a machine, but letting professionals do it would be faster & maybe cheaper.

 

[jmfox]

I usually house my toys, like the Polaris Ranger and I'm currently adding on 20 feet to accommodate my ASV SR80, but of all the full size equipment my family has owned it all sat outside and my cars were never garaged. Hasn't been a problem, except maybe for the diesel equipment with no preheaters. In that case we just started a wood fire under it.

jmf

 

[AlanB]

I will chime in here a bit as well.

I am doing something very similar. 9.6 acres, old house, building shop, Landscaping business etc.

I went with a Ford 555C 4wd. $14K dropped at my house.

My short relevant thoughts.

I always want more power, I played on a TC 30 with a hoe last week and thought no way would I ever own something this small.

Parts, expertise, etc. etc. is plentifull if I break my hoe, but it is also considerably heavier tougher then a small one so I hope I do not do it as much.

I am competent with a wrench and welder. Not the best, but know to ask questions and how to keep pushing forward to accomplish a project.

As to all the guys saying rent.

My stuff never works that smoothly that I rent and get everything done. One of the big reasons I bought my own hoe was the number of times I kept wishing I had a hoe / excavator / big loader but only really needed it for an hour or two. Not worth renting to do that job, but those jobs happen about 3 or 4 times a week at my place.

I like doing my own stuff. If I want it dug here,this deep, then that is what I get, I do not have to explain, or come back and understand what went wrong etc. I just do it myself in the hour or two I have.

I find it dang near therapy to run mine. I sat on it for about 2 to 3 hours last night digging for my drive. I wished I still had the bobcat for some of the stuff, and then was glad at the end when I could turn around and use the hoe to dig for the footer.

If I had it to do over, I would buy the full size TLB in a heartbeat, even taking into account the greif I catch from my wife......

One other point of note though is that I do also have a 1925 NH (33 hp CUT) that we use for some stuff as well.

Have fun whichever way you go.

 

[Kendall69]

First of all they haven't made the perfect tractor for all needs yet, and never will.

Seems like there's a lot of comparing apples to hand grenades here. For the construction guy who needs massive power, massive lifting, great we all know what machines they should own.

For the "others" yes get the smaller MORE USEFUL tractor that can do 75-80% of what you need to do, and either rent or contract out the other. For the average non contractor type, the small utility tractors are perfect, hence the reason most manufacturers are producing them when Kubota was one of the first many. many years ago.

I doesn't make sense to buy a full size tractor just to dig your foundation or septic, then be stuck with the beast for years to come or have to take a beating on selling it, or even the hassle of selling.

For me the Small Kubota with a backhoe was perfect, I dug 600 feet of trench four seperate times, and many other tasks. did I do them as fast as "the big boys" no, but for me it didn't matter, I'm not on a schedule.

Did I need more lifting or power, you bet, when I had to clear 4 acres of trees, so I rented dozer, and did it it in eight hours, for $800.00 - and not even the big loaders could have accomplished that task.

So buy a long range usage tractor, one that will do the "most" and rent for the extra oomph, if you need it.

I used to hate renting, now I’m a huge fan of renting. Also contracting out is my new best friend. To mulch the four acres I was quoted $100.00 per hour for four guys, a chipper, and a dump truck. Even I couldn’t beat that on my own, renting just the equipment.

Oh, and yes mine was out in the 117 degree plus sun, at times 365 days a year, for almost 10 years before I sold it, with no problems, not even a rotten belt or hose.

 

[mike69440]

If I had VERY little money to spend on tools and wanted to build , the first tool in my arsenal would be a used full size 4x4 backhoe.

An old CASE 4x4 580 series, Deere or even a Ford/NH, or CAT would be the most reliable, dependable, versatile single machine you could possibly buy for digging ground & trenches, uprooting trees & roots, spreading stone, etc.

You could find a very nice used Case 580 Super K 4x4 with a cab for under $25K or a Super L with a cab for under $30K. Either will do twice the work of a new or used L-48/39. Heck a used L-48 is gonna run you $25,000. New L-48 is gonna pull close to $40,000!! Even an old Case 4x4 will do twice the work. You have to realize the smaller used TLBs are more expensive because of their small size. They actually know you need a small machine and they kill you for it. OTOH, there's so many used full size TLB's out there there's legitimate price competition for your business! You'll get a better deal.

Lookie here: eBay: 1987 580K CASE BACKHOE- VERY LOW HOURS -4x4 (item 270142886140 end time Jul-14-07 09:27:02 PDT)

With a cab, you can work in bad elements or plow the driveway in the winter a lot more comfortably than an open ROPS L-48 Don't be afraid of the size, you'll get used to it in one day!

Well, I'll give my thoughts.

Now that I know the magnitude of what my own little paradise on 17 acres entails, I would have started with a full size used TLB. Heck, I just bought an excavator. Was I far off buying the L39. Not so much. I wish it had Air and a cab. It has done stuff that would have been hard to do with a full size, and been pushed beyond it's ability on others jobs. As I have found out with the excavator, buying used is a gamble. I'll let you know how I did a year from now.

The machine that has made us at least $30,000 is my little old Kubota B7200!
Weighted to nearly double its empty weight, that poor old thing has moved a lot of dirt in a lot of different home projects at several homes. Now having a little tractor is a great thing if you hate wheelbarrels and shovels.

If I were to get a full size TLB, I would want a cherry TLB like Builders, but that would be near the cost of what I have in both the excavator and L39. Around here a $20K to $25,000 FS TLB is getting long in the tooth, even more so than the excavator I bought, so I'd end up doing some shopping like I did for the excavator. That is exhausting.

In the end, the L39 decision will be judged on just how much L39 is left after I get through all this construction and get to use the L39 as intended.

PS the excavator is back on site and you will get a report of how my team works after the weekend!

 

[mike69440]

I recently purchased 10 acres of land that my fiancée and I plan on using for a home site.

How much of the real heavy work you intend on hiring out depends if you should go FS TLB.

Raw land is really RAW. The L48 won't make much headway.

As a clean up the site finish work machine, ithe L48 is great. Good on fuel and real handy. It will do more than landscape but 10 acres is 10 acres.

 

[ktm250rider]

I had the same intentions when I started my house 3 years ago. I picked up a JD 4510 with a FEL from a buddy that was getting divorced (smoken deal on it so the ex wouldnt get it). I wasnt planning on doing alot of site work. Mainly rough in the driveway, back fill foundation, pick up from logger and general landscaping when done.

Although the tractor has been a life saver, I used it for none of those jobs except for spreading the gravel for the driveway and landscaping. The ground was too hard to use the FEL to rough in the driveway. If it had a backhoe, that probably would have worked.
It took just about all day to fill one side of the foundation hole for the cement trucks to do their thing.

I rented a Cat 315 to dig our the stumps over the weekend. I got "most" of them out and burried. Thought Id have time to do the driveway too. Im just not proficient enough. While it was fun to run for the weekend, it was in no way cost effective as I thought.

In the end, I found a local excavator that was here two days to back fill my foundation, bury the remaining stumps along with cleaning up around the site and digging the trench for my well.

The 4510 has been a godsend when moving lumber, plowing snow, landscaping and logging firewood. I dont think Ill ever not own a tractor.

 

[jmfox]

Pretty straight forward advice here. It is surprising how many guys are in the same market. As a kid the family business was landscaping and contracting, so I'm familiar with machinery and operating. Now, having to improve 40 acres of land, I've decided to do it with the ASV SR80. I originally thought the Bobcat Toolcat would be the right tool but after much reflection there is just too much heavy lifting, slopes, thorns and bull work for a utility machine or UTV. I chose the SR80 because of the many attachments available, ground clearance, stability and speed (12.5 mph). The SR80 still skids a little but is a unique crossover between crawler and wheeled utility machine. The first time I heard how smooth it travelled, I knew it was a special breed. Yes, and now the real test. Initially I will be doing some serious grudging, tree digging/moving, grading, trail/driveway work, maybe a pond and then some mulching. Thereafter I'll be in the maintenance mode. I expect it will work fine for plowing snow, and seasonal field mowing, but the jury is out as to whether it can earn its keep doing those day in and day out chores on a farmstead.

jmf