China-made equipment...

[Builder]

Maybe it's you who needs let go of the importance of Europe. The countries there as individuals are mostly tiny and insignificant.

Look at the size of the US economy before you dismiss it as so irrelevant. We have states with economies as large as France. Our overall economy is roughly the size of the four next largest world economies combined. IOW, 30% of the world economy is the USA.

You might also look at where the Euros sell their products. There are European companies where roughly 50% of their production goes to US market. German automakers for instance.

I doubt they'd think that the US is so unimportant. Neither would anyone else who looked at the real numbers without some form of misguided nationalism skewing their view...

Europe wouldn't even exist as we know it today without the sacrafices the US made for Europe.

 

[mouse]

seeing as we're having a good old chew on global politics - what are you boys gunna do when the usd stops being the financial currency of choice?

I safely reckon the euro is about to swamp it.

someone once pointed out to me the reasoning behind the iraq thing had much much more to do with protecting the usd than anything else but i'm not qualified to comment on that.

right now we have pretty much parity aud to usd which is unusual.


I don't buy into the sacrifices usa made for europe argument - everything comes at a cost inc war.... i only need to look at the bills the us govt has been handing out to toehr countries for the iraqi effort.

 

[Builder]

I don't have the same opinions as you on America!

What I find bothersome is nearly every one of your posts I've read in the past few months have a cheap shot at America, whether obvious or a hidden agenda in them and I don't like it.

many lines in your posts mentionproducts that are American owned have some foreign content or is some bastardized POS or that we're being buried by China, etc.

I was raised that if you want to shake hands and be friends with another person, you don't continually insult his country or countrymen or what comes from his country.

I'd be happy to "shake hands" with you and be friends, but you first need to lighten up on your America bashing agenda and putting us down as has beens or losers. I DON'T think I'm superior to you, nor you to I and I disagree with some forms of American culture just like I disapprove of legalized drug use in Holland!

I don't like seeing my countrymen put down and I will stand up for my country even if "joeinTX" is afraid to.

 

[Renze]

You might also look at where the Euros sell their products. There are European companies where roughly 50% of their production goes to US market. German automakers for instance.
I doubt they'd think that the US is so unimportant. Neither would anyone else who looked at the real numbers without some form of misguided nationalism skewing their view...

Then why do you guys need Euro cars ?? ;p
And.... How much do we, Europeans, actually import from the USA ??
The import/export balance is where the American economy lacks today.
They might be able to help themself out, but they import lots of goods from all over the world, and export very little. thats the cause of the low value of the Dollar, compared to the Euro.

I do understand American aversion against foreign products, because your economy cant export enough and the more you import, the less worth your dollar is.
However, thinking that you can avoid this, is a fairy tale: there is nothing you can do against it but war, which will help the global economy to the same level as yours haha, just kidding

 

[Renze]

I was raised that if you want to shake hands and be friends with another person, you don't continually insult his country or countrymen or what comes from his country. .

YOU HIT THE NAIL ON ITS HEAD !!! Thats exactly why so many muslim countries hate Americans !!!

 

[Builder]

Well, Renzo, I'm done with you. I tried to give you some friendly advice. You'll have to find someone else's hand to shake. Maybe "JoeinTx" and you can get a room together and talk about how much y'all hate on America.

I really don't give a rat's butt what Muslims think about us or the Dutch for that matter, you both have plenty of blood on your hands.

 

[Builder]

Then why do you guys need Euro cars ?? ;p

Ummm, maybe because "euro cars" get better fue economy and if you didn't notice, we're in a bit of a increase at the fuel pump over here. Heck, I own a "euro car" a Volvo XC90 and guess what? The car sux on fuel (14MPG), has too small of a small fuel tank and AC that doesn't work very good. Pretty lame for $52,000. I'm going back to GM this fall. If I'm gonna get 14MPG, I'm gonna do it in a Tahoe full size SUV that's roomier, more capapble of towing & off-road and will run over my Volvo.

"And.... How much do we, Europeans, actually import from the USA ??
The import/export balance is where the American economy lacks today.
They might be able to help themself out, but they import lots of goods from all over the world, and export very little. thats the cause of the low value of the Dollar, compared to the Euro

Actually, if you knew about economics, the lower the value of the dollar, the more we export since forein currency would be able to buy more American goods.

I do understand American aversion against foreign products, because your economy cant export enough and the more you import, the less worth your dollar is.
However, thinking that you can avoid this, is a fairy tale: there is nothing you can do against it but war, which will help the global economy to the same level as yours haha, just kidding

Actually, I believe you're not "just kidding". I think you really mean that. You typify some outside the US who think we make war only to wake up our economy. Nice try, renze.

 

[mouse]

Actually, if you knew about economics, the lower the value of the dollar, the more we export since forein currency would be able to buy more American goods.

good text book theory imho - isn't the reason the dollar goes down cause noone wants the thing? (whatever the currency)

i think in the real world the financila sector has far more implication for the usd thandoes the industrial sector.

 

[Renze]

Europe wouldn't even exist as we know it today without the sacrafices the US made for Europe.

Read a few posts back, and you'll read that i admitted that without hesitation:
However we dont live in the 40's and 50's anymore.

But lets dig deeper: If there werent European explorers (British, Spanish, Dutch and French) on the continent of America, still native americans would be hunting buffalo's along your continent !!

Do we, Europeans, ever look down on you because WE established modern civilisation, the basis for the current USA ??
No, because what happened that long ago, has no influence on the current global politics and economy...
Despite that, the USA is respected, and in WW2 they returned the favour helping us out against the Germans, and after that, to help us rebuild our world with the Marshall plan !

I guess you just remember what suits you...

 

[Renze]

I really don't give a rat's butt what Muslims think about us or the Dutch for that matter, you both have plenty of blood on your hands.

Could you please explain to me what you are implying with this remark ????
You are implicit about what you're trying to say, but is it correct that i sniff a sense of hate ???

Returning the hate, doesnt get the world anywhere. In North Ireland, catholics and protestants were in the same downward spiral:
Yet they have managed to get out: When they started showing mutual respect, people werent triggered anymore to become extremist and then bomb each other.
A few years later, the rest of the world forgot that there ever has been a problem in North Ireland....

Nelson Mandela said "when you start cooperating with your enemy, he becomes your friend"

think about that in the proper context....



I agree, this discussion isnt getting us anywhere.... Not without putting things in the right perspective....

 

[rcaretti]

"Oh, and, don't complain about high fuel prices if you believe in true American production. The higher the price of fuel, the more sensible it is to produce on American soil when you consider transportation and excise costs. So, Builder, if you are a "good" American you need to cheer higher transportation costs so that more companies will choose to locate their manufacturing and finishing operations here.......like Hyundai, Kia, Hino, LG, Kubota, and so on.

I have to say that this is a good point that I hadn't thought of before. I mean it makes perfect sense that higher transportation costs make foreign produced good more expensive relative to domesticly produced products.

I've been concerned for years that we aren't keeping enough of our core maufacturing here in the USA, and have been hoping we'd see tax policy/incentives for domesticly produced heavy manufacturing (steel, Ag, etc). I'm a little less concerned about consumer goods - though it still bothers me we can't competively produce more goods here.

 

[JSharp]

Then why do you guys need Euro cars ?? ;p
And.... How much do we, Europeans, actually import from the USA ??
The import/export balance is where the American economy lacks today.
They might be able to help themself out, but they import lots of goods from all over the world, and export very little. thats the cause of the low value of the Dollar, compared to the Euro.

I do understand American aversion against foreign products, because your economy cant export enough and the more you import, the less worth your dollar is.
However, thinking that you can avoid this, is a fairy tale: there is nothing you can do against it but war, which will help the global economy to the same level as yours haha, just kidding

Again, you might want to look at the real numbers instead of what you want to believe. The US is the world's third largest exporter behind Germany and China. We must be producing something. The fact that we import a substantial amount more than we export changes that not at all.

Most of the US trade deficit comes from trade with certain Asian countries and of late, from oil imports. That's hardly the reason for the low dollar though. Central banking, in our case the Federal Reserve policies have far more to do with the value of currency than the manufacturing element.

In the case of our trade imbalance with Europe, it's not all that large and it's falling. That's the price the EU will pay for a currency that's currently sitting on a high peg. European companies that export a high percentage of their overall output to the US will pay the most. I suppose that's OK in Brussels. It may or may not be OK if we were to ask an employee of Porsche.

The need to point these things out to you makes me wonder if you don't know the real numbers or are just trolling. <shrug> I suppose given the source either is understandable. One can't expect a guy running a 7/11 to know what's required to be the CEO of Walmart eh? j/k you know... After all, the Dutch economy is almost as large as that of Pennsylvania.

I do wonder about German cars myself. Their high cost and poor reliability, even when compared to cheap US models, is well known. I suppose perceived status has it's price although the phrase "one born every minute" would explain it as well.

Cheers!

 

[JSharp]

I have to say that this is a good point that I hadn't thought of before. I mean it makes perfect sense that higher transportation costs make foreign produced good more expensive relative to domesticly produced products.

I've been concerned for years that we aren't keeping enough of our core maufacturing here in the USA, and have been hoping we'd see tax policy/incentives for domesticly produced heavy manufacturing (steel, Ag, etc). I'm a little less concerned about consumer goods - though it still bothers me we can't competively produce more goods here.

Higher transportation costs and a low dollar will see some manufacturing start to move back here although "here" will likely mean North America, south of the US border.

Incentives and what not can help but it's prudent to beware of unintended consequences. Farm subsidies in general and ethanol in particular are recent examples of how a dollar spent to benefit one group can cost other groups or society as a whole even more dollars.

Consumer product manufacturing is a race to the bottom. There's no way to compete with a 3rd world peasant working for a dollar a day and willing to live in what we'd label a SuperFund site short of becoming just like them.

Best to let that sort of manufacturing go and concentrate on higher value, more technologically advanced products. The US excels at those things already. Better to build something that only we can build versus something that just about anyone can build...

 

[roccon31]

Roc, you've apparently spent some time running the road.


Why have MB and Cummins survived where Cat has not? Sure, gubbermint regs and all, I understand.........why have they been able to tackle them to some degree while Cat has not? These are economic realities. Can Cat not understand them while MB and Cummins can?

If so, then we have a problem at Caterpiller.........not the other way around. Cat, with all of its engineering prowess and research, should by all rights be able to beat its rivals in this game if it is an economically feasible arena to be in. Apparently to Caterpillar, it's not. Is Cat shortsighted? Lacking engineering?

Are the likes of MB and Cummins and International and Mack (Renault via Volvo) and PACCAR (DAF via Peterbilt and Kenworth) and such able to handle these changes in engineering and policy better? Apparently so. Well, if they can, why can't Caterpillar?


Economics. Others are better placed to handle such changes while others are not. Pure and simple. No nationalistic approach. No politcal intentions. Just business. The way it should be.

If Isuzu builds the best and most economical motor for my needs........I'm buying it. If Firestone (uh, Japanese owned) makes the best tire for my needs....I'm buying it. If Philips (Dutch) makes the best monitor for my GPS....I'm buying it. If Samsung makes the most reliable mobile phone for me (yeah, Korean) then I'm buying it. Nonwithstanding the idea that that tire or LCD or handset or engine may be built in the U.S. or Mexico or Canada or maybe in Japan or France.

As the ultimate end-user, it makes little difference.

i beleive CAT does have some problems. i dont understand why their equipment prices are so high, maybe it is cost of production? that would certainly explain them not being able to keep up in the truck engine market.

in order to acheive maximum torque at low RPM (a cat's strongest point) you need to dump large amounts of fuel in the cylinders, which will cause the emissions that the EPA has deemed unacceptable. ACERT was cat's attempt at using wierd cam and fuel profiles, one smaller and one larger turbo to spool faster and increase cylinder pressure and heat at lower rpm's while maintaining high rpm power. the end result was engines that are unreliable, sluggish, and fuel guzzlers. to redesign an engine to produce "cat worthy" low rpm torque numbers with current epa emissions standards with customers demanding high fuel efficiency and reliability would be not only extremely expensive, but next to impossible IMHO.

the MB and Cummins and even Detroit are willing fo sacrifice low end torque to acheive their goals. i've never driven a cummins that spooled before 1500 rpm, where as a cat will be at full spool at 1250, and keep pulling to the governer. it makes a huge difference for driveability in an off highway situation. this is why MACK was so popular.

now a MACK engine on the other hand, was great until renault-volvo got involved. an old 2 valve mack was a strong torquey reliable engine. the 4 valve was ehh, alright, but the e-mack (renault) electronic engine was complete garbage. poor (non existant?) throttle response, poor fuel economy, and just poor driveability in general. mack has always suffered for a lack of displacement for producing big HP numbers like the the big boys can. mack is now completely owned by volvo and no longer produces any "mack" engines. its all volvo goods.

i've heard nothing about the new paccar engines (like who actually makes them?), as nobody i know is buying new trucks. if they were bad though, i would have been informed by now.

 

[Renze]

the MB and Cummins and even Detroit are willing fo sacrifice low end torque to acheive their goals. i've never driven a cummins that spooled before 1500 rpm, where as a cat will be at full spool at 1250, and keep pulling to the governer. it makes a huge difference for driveability in an off highway situation. this is why MACK was so popular.

Many modern engines, are highly turbocharged, and completely give up inder 1000 rpm... this is because of the emission, most trucks these days sense the turbo pressure, and give minimum fuel when there is no turbo pressure, to prevent black smoke.

I allways thought that bi-turbo technology was the answer to this, because the small turbo gives instant response, then spools up the big turbo, but you guys say that Cat's ACERT technology was based on this, and also say it didnt work....
Can anyone tell my WHY it doesnt work ?? I'm allways eager to learn

i've heard nothing about the new paccar engines (like who actually makes them?), as nobody i know is buying new trucks. if they were bad though, i would have been informed by now.

The 3rd generation of the 12.9 liter DAF engines (van Doornes Automobiel Fabriek - Eindhoven, the Netherlands) are no longer called DAF, but Paccar.
The current Paccar MX engine is a 12.9 liter 6 cylinder, i think up to 570 hp max ?
Its a very popular engine in Europe, it is a very modern design, though it has been tried and tested for at least 10 years. DAF engines have a good name in common.

I'll expect more problems with the MB engines, which Detroit will produce for the North American market... they (MB) had some serious reliability problems with certain V8 engine series...

 

[Renze]

Most of the US trade deficit comes from trade with certain Asian countries .....

thats an interesting aspect in this discussion, back to the origin, yet i dont see the relation... could you elaborate on that ? is "china made equipment" really to blame for the poor USA economy at this moment, or is this concidental?

European companies that export a high percentage of their overall output to the US will pay the most. I suppose that's OK in Brussels. It may or may not be OK if we were to ask an employee of Porsche.

Very true, Americans have to pay lotsa dollar$ to buy Euro goods, with this course. However the example you mention: a typical Porsche buyer, wouldnt care about that, would he

Even though Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge dealers over here, are running "low dollar weeks" sales programs, the demand for USA cars hasnt really grown from that...

 

[Renze]

Consumer product manufacturing is a race to the bottom. There's no way to compete with a 3rd world peasant working for a dollar a day and willing to live in what we'd label a SuperFund site short of becoming just like them.

Good point !! thats exactly why USA companies need to outsource to China for example, to stay in the race !!

Best to let that sort of manufacturing go and concentrate on higher value, more technologically advanced products. The US excels at those things already. Better to build something that only we can build versus something that just about anyone can build...

I'll admit that i've teased you guys, with the fact that most of your new truck engine technology for next year, comes from Europe:
To put this in perspective, the main reason for it is, that you economy already has slowed, which means that manufacturers dont spend money on developing their own engines, but choose to seek cooperation with Europe, where the economy is still (!knock on wood!) strong, and manufacturers had more financial resources to put into engine development.

But nothing is as uncertain as economy: As soon as 1 fool shouts "Depression !!" all companies hold their money to wait for the things to come.
As soon as aforementioned companies are delaying investments, the snowball starts to roll and other branches are slowing down too because their products remain unsold.