China-made equipment...

[JSharp]

thats an interesting aspect in this discussion, back to the origin, yet i dont see the relation... could you elaborate on that ? is "china made equipment" really to blame for the poor USA economy at this moment, or is this concidental?

I'm not sure where this conclusion comes from. The US economy is is doing poorly right now relative to a few years ago. We can trace that to Federal Reserve policies though, not the Chinese even if trade policies do play a part. And in spite of what you read in the unbiased world press we're not all living in cardboard boxes over here and eating at soup kitchens.

The Europeans are certainly not in any better shape. Unless this article is total BS -

Europe looks no longer immune to U.S. economic storm - International Herald Tribune

Today things may look somewhat more rosy there, but given the size of the US economy there's no way out. When we sneeze, *everyone* catches a cold. Catching it a day later doesn't mean you won't end up as sick or even sicker that the guy that gave it to you.

Very true, Americans have to pay lotsa dollar$ to buy Euro goods, with this course. However the example you mention: a typical Porsche buyer, wouldnt care about that, would he

Even though Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge dealers over here, are running "low dollar weeks" sales programs, the demand for USA cars hasnt really grown from that...

It may seem as if German automakers have a customer base that isn't price sensitive but it's really untrue. There are plenty of 3 Series Beemers sitting in suburbia that wouldn't be there if they cost even a penny more, let alone 25%-50% more.

It's especially bad for them since most of them were purchased with borrowed money made cheap by our Fed policies. Higher prices for the product in the US thanks to the high Euro and tightening of our credit supply will not be good for European manufacturers. Just a couple of the reasons that VW recently announced it's once again going to be manufacturing in this country.

It's easy to see why Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge are having trouble there. They're having trouble here too...

 

[roccon31]

Many modern engines, are highly turbocharged, and completely give up inder 1000 rpm... this is because of the emission, most trucks these days sense the turbo pressure, and give minimum fuel when there is no turbo pressure, to prevent black smoke.

I allways thought that bi-turbo technology was the answer to this, because the small turbo gives instant response, then spools up the big turbo, but you guys say that Cat's ACERT technology was based on this, and also say it didnt work....
Can anyone tell my WHY it doesnt work ?? I'm allways eager to learn




The 3rd generation of the 12.9 liter DAF engines (van Doornes Automobiel Fabriek - Eindhoven, the Netherlands) are no longer called DAF, but Paccar.
The current Paccar MX engine is a 12.9 liter 6 cylinder, i think up to 570 hp max ?
Its a very popular engine in Europe, it is a very modern design, though it has been tried and tested for at least 10 years. DAF engines have a good name in common.

I'll expect more problems with the MB engines, which Detroit will produce for the North American market... they (MB) had some serious reliability problems with certain V8 engine series...

bi-turbo's- it does work, to eliminate black smoke, however, the trade off is heat. cat couldnt get the trucks to run cool enough in a real world use to be dependable. the c-16 (single turbo) @ 600hp was a heat monster- dual 6" exhaust was factory mandatory for heat dissipation. larger multi-core radiators also. but boy, were they fun to drive! once they went to ACERT, they backed all of the hp numbers down due to heat problems. the 550's were putting out more heat than the old 600's, drank alot more fuel and were a 40,000$ option. were talking 4 mpg instead of 6 mpg (on/off highway). thats HUGE! at that time i was in process of spec'ing a new triaxle when this happened. i never bought the new truck for this reason also.

black smoke- yep, thats exactly whats going on, fuel is limited by boost pressure now. the funny thing is, that black smoke is cleaner to breathe than most car exhaust, just looks dirty so its an easy target.

i can also tell you this. the wastegate that my turbo had on my last truck (cat c-12 @430 with computer at full fuel always, non-restricted) was slow to react to changes in throttle. i had it blocked off which did a few things for me. raised boost pressure by about 9 psi (from 23 to 32) lowered my exhaust temps by 300 degrees (yes, i was out flowing my injectors= could have used more fuel) and i gained a HUGE amount of throttle response. my fuel mileage also went up by about .5 mpg. my theory on why is this- with the increased throttle response, i could run lower rpms and not have to downshift as much, and could still pull a hill. the truck also smoked less pulling away from a stop, because the turbo spooled much faster. sort of a dog chasing his tail type thing with emissions. more emission control=less throttle response=more heat=more fuel burned due to driver wanting more power=more emissions=and so on, and so on...

thanks for the info on the paccar engines, renze good to know its not "new tech" that we should be leary of coming from paccar.

 

[Renze]

once they went to ACERT, they backed all of the hp numbers down due to heat problems. the 550's were putting out more heat than the old 600's, drank alot more fuel and were a 40,000$ option. were talking 4 mpg instead of 6 mpg (on/off highway). thats HUGE! at that time i was in process of spec'ing a new triaxle when this happened. i never bought the new truck for this reason also.

Hmm... Are you sure that this is only to blame to the ACERT bi-turbo technology ?
A lot of TIER 3 engines use a lot more fuel than their TIER 2 predecessors: Early JD 20 series tractors were notorious for their fuel consumption, as well as Volkswagen's latest 2.5 TDI engines in the Transporter and Crafter vans and light trucks. There are a lot more examples of higher fuel consumption in TIER 3 engines, but i cant remember them all.

To lower the NoX emissions, they change the injection, to get lower combustion peak temperatures, though it means that more heat leaves through the exhaust: more energy being wasted in heat, means less energy comes out at the crankshaft: less fuel efficiency.

thanks for the info on the paccar engines, renze good to know its not "new tech" that we should be leary of coming from paccar.

take a look at DAF Trucks N.V.

click on "components"

In europe, only bus makers let customers choose engines and transmissions, alike US truck makers: All European truckmakers use their own engines and their own transmission, or a ZF transmission: You cant choose your taste between Cummins, CAT, Detroit in the same truck model though, like Americans can.

did you guys know, that International, used to have a 30% share in DAF in the 70's ????

http://www.daf.com/userdata/corporate/photos XF105/hires/paccar MX engine.jpg

 

[JoeinTX]

Higher transportation costs and a low dollar will see some manufacturing start to move back here although "here" will likely mean North America, south of the US border.

Incentives and what not can help but it's prudent to beware of unintended consequences. Farm subsidies in general and ethanol in particular are recent examples of how a dollar spent to benefit one group can cost other groups or society as a whole even more dollars.

Consumer product manufacturing is a race to the bottom. There's no way to compete with a 3rd world peasant working for a dollar a day and willing to live in what we'd label a SuperFund site short of becoming just like them.

Best to let that sort of manufacturing go and concentrate on higher value, more technologically advanced products. The US excels at those things already. Better to build something that only we can build versus something that just about anyone can build...

Very acute.


As you say, the race for classic consumer "manufacturing" jobs is a dead-end in this environment. I'm sure we all have a family member who worked in a radio or toy or textile or some such factory in the 1940/50/60/70s when the nation's who have now taken over these industries today were just dank pits. Try to compete with a moderately good Vietnamese shirt maker in the U.S. in today's marketplace and you will lose your butt. They can do it cheaper and as good as you can.

Thus, the cost of transport comes into play. If the price of fuel holds at current levels then the clothing brand contracting with that Vietnamese factory will begin to look closer to home to reduce the costs of transporting the finished product to the buyer. And, that closer location may be Mexico or Nicaraugua or Belize, but there are still some benefits to this if doing so gives the people of these lands a chance at job opportunities that they don't have today which is driving them north to the U.S. and Canada in the search of some form of appreciable income. More jobs south of the border isn't necessarily a bad thing since there are many issues at play here.


Back to fuel prices...........at $2.00/gallon many foreign car companies were finding it more economical to move production to the U.S. rather than import. Now, at $3.75 or more, that move makes all the more sense. If this bump in fuel costs is sustained and becomes the accepted market norm, well, you could see other industries begin to make similar moves closer to the marketplace that they are attempting to sell to. TVs? Consumer electronics? Who knows.

While the price of gas is a huge drag on the average consumer the macroeconomic effect of higher fuels costs can become a benefit to that same individual as economic realities play themselves out.

 

[ddivinia]

thats an interesting aspect in this discussion, back to the origin, yet i dont see the relation... could you elaborate on that ? is "china made equipment" really to blame for the poor USA economy at this moment, or is this concidental?




Very true, Americans have to pay lotsa dollar$ to buy Euro goods, with this course. However the example you mention: a typical Porsche buyer, wouldnt care about that, would he

Even though Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge dealers over here, are running "low dollar weeks" sales programs, the demand for USA cars hasnt really grown from that...

Actually Porsche buyers in the US do care what they cost. This same stuff happened in the 80s and Porsche sales went in the toilet for a number of reasons. I have had a number of Porsches. They are great cars when they aren't in the shop.

Also, it is quite obvious you are not an economics scholar.

Renze,
Nobody can have a conversation with you - regardless of the topic

Go out and play with your worn out Zetor tractor,
D.


D.

 

[Renze]

Renze,
Nobody can have a conversation with you - regardless of the topic

Disrespecting people for NOT sharing YOUR opinion, is called either ignorance or fascism, depending on severity...

Sorry to hear that you dont wish to join this discussion and learn from each other.

 

[ddivinia]

Disrespecting people for NOT sharing YOUR opinion, is called either ignorance or fascism, depending on severity...

Sorry to hear that you dont wish to join this discussion and learn from each other.

There ya go again. I have tried conversing with you before on other topics and it is a painful situation. What you are stating and protecting in many cases are not opinions.

Depending upon the view one might think that my "opinions" are ignorance, but in no way it is fascism. Where did that come from anyway?

Geez, I stand by my other response,
D.

 

[Renze]

Now we need to dig out from the damage done and I doubt it will be quick. Especially since things grew to such a degree that we're in "prop up mode" for large financial institutions, just to keep the house of cards from falling completely.

Again, <shrug> Not much one guy or even one small group can do to make it different. Ultimately we'll need to grow our way out of it so to speak and we will. Once we get the direction changed to the positive that is. We can only hope that the latest plan to save all plans doesn't prolong the problems...

Nice talking with you...

I read an article in a paper, that said that despite the fact that Obama is gaining popularity in Europe (there were a lot of people, when he spoke in Berlin last week) it would be still doubtfull if Obama could really make this "change" : Clinton left the job, leaving the states with more income than debts: In all 8 years of Bush, the states spent more than they got from taxes, while promising tax reductions.

The writer's opinion was, that with the baby boomers that will stop working in the coming years, the states will need even more tax, from less working people. However allmost every US president, promised tax reductions in election time. Bush sr. said "read my lips:No more taxes !" But he felt he had to rise tax during his elected time, and wasnt elected for another year.

Our country has risen its taxes quite a bit, the past years. It might endanger the competitive position of our country, but we need the tax to pay for all our elderly people of the baby boom of the 50's that stop working these years, and need medical care, elderly homes, government pensions, etcetera.

The government started a campaign, rising taxes, under the motto "first comes the bitter, then comes the sweet" to prepare the country for the depression, whilst preparing for the upcoming changes in the working population. We didnt have much problems, compared to the rest of Europe though.

In America, i assume the situation wont be much different because the same trend takes place in your country: the babyboom generation quits working and gets old, needing more medical attention, which also means that a smaller young generation of healthy working people have to pay the tax to finance the care for the bigger older generation ??

 

[Renze]

What you are stating and protecting in many cases are not opinions.

then what are they ????????????

 

[sunspot]

Renze, I read recently that the US birthrate has gone up the past few years. A bit to late to pay for my old age. I値l be in my early 80's before the new kids pay (Taxes) kicks in for me.

 

[mouse]

then what are they ????????????

gotta say i think you're flogging a dead horse trying to communicate with someone as pigheaded as our longhorn mate...

such a brilliant display for why america is a place best left to the americans

 

[ddivinia]

gotta say i think you're flogging a dead horse trying to communicate with someone as pigheaded as our longhorn mate...

such a brilliant display for why america is a place best left to the americans

I'll explain myself:

Well in many cases he is not arguing opinions, but facts. He is flat wrong on many of them. In addition it is pretty much senseless to try to discuss anything with him. I told myself to not even get involved with this one. It is not just this thread but there are many others on Tractorbynet.

I guess watching the news and reading a couple history books he is an expert on America. I would have to check, but I think we have ranches in Texas larger than his whole country. There I go, picking on the little guy again. My point is that the diversity of issues, weather, economics, etc. across our country is not trivial. As usual the outsiders try to lump them all into one bucket. What might make sense for New York City might not make any sense in Paris, Texas.

Also, the comments about how Clinton left us in such good shape and Bush drove us into the ground is not a simple one at all. There is no debate about the budget, economy, etc. - that is a fact. The .com to the .bomb, then real estate, now energy speculation, the list goes on. Who would want that job anyway? Hillary sure spent a lot of money trying to get it. People that think the President is the only factor that makes these changes is not very informed. There is no way one person can fix or break that much stuff. Obama or McCain - same deal. American has issues like many other countries.

Usually it is Americans trashing America. Most of those people are not traveled and not well read. Go spend a couple hours in Zimbabwe and get back to me. I have been all over the world. American might not be the best place in the world, but isn't in last place either.

Also, I suspect most of Europeans would be speaking German right now if it was not for us pigheaded Americans.

D.

 

[Renze]

I'll explain myself:

Well in many cases he is not arguing opinions, but facts. He is flat wrong on many of them. In addition it is pretty much senseless to try to discuss anything with him. I told myself to not even get involved with this one. It is not just this thread but there are many others on Tractorbynet.

I cant remember ever having a discussion or debate with you.. So why did you not get involved, untill in the debate only some knowledgeable guys are left, of which i am glad to learn. Then you sneak up from behind and throw a hand full of pebbles ??
You just didnt earn any respect with that

Oh, and if you were referring to my very first post in this thread: I admit the China-overtaking-America-thing was purely provocative.
But i achieved my goal with it: It lead to a great debate !!

Go spend a couple hours in Zimbabwe and get back to me. I have been all over the world. American might not be the best place in the world, but isn't in last place either.

We have a friend in Zimbabwe, which we support financially, and in our prayers. I know a bit or two about their situation.
Next to that: once again: You never heard me say that America was a worse place than my little Holland....

Also, I suspect most of Europeans would be speaking German right now if it was not for us pigheaded Americans.

Once again, these useless history remarks: However, Americans arent speaking American, but speak ENGLISH, dont they ???

 

[SLOBuds]

such a brilliant display for why america is a place best left to the americans

There it is in a nutshell! And just to expand on this 'never would want to live there' concept - whatever anyone does, never never live in California! That place is infested with sunny beaches, fair weather, blond gals, fertile soils, and odd people.

No one would ever deliberately want to actually live there.

We've got one planet going here, regardless of a bunch of folks wanting to deny or ignore that. Our choice is either to work with those facts or to slug it out as we have in the past.

The American boastfulness is agitating to others. Most non-Americans understand this cultural attribute of ours. They politely accept it as simply another personality factor in the 'everyone is unique' category. Other non-Americans are compelled to let the American know that he doesn't have a corner on the truth. That he is pretty much like everyone else. ('Ouch!!!' says the American back!)

It's equally untenable to say that everything is good in America as it is to say that everything is bad in America. One VERY good thing about America, though, is that you really are free to express either thing. I wouldn not want to be anywhere on the plant that forbid me to complain about things that weren't right. I know those places exist. And I also know on the other hand that America is NOT the only place that allows dissent.

For me, the whole package here in America is pretty good. For me ... maybe not for others. So I'm not shopping and probably never will. Especially when you consider that I have sunny beaches, fair weather, blond gals, and fertile soil.

 

[SLOBuds]

Once again, these useless history remarks: However, Americans arent speaking American, but speak ENGLISH, dont they ???

See. Proves that if you troll long enough you'll catch a couple of fish. (Also notice that most of the school has left the area.)

It's a good question though about history. I'm thinking that I kind of agree with that. The past is full of actions where one side helped the other, and vice versa. So 'useless history' means to abandon consideration for all those things that happened before, and base today's decisions on today.

It's hard to pull off though. First of all, cultures always honor their dead. So if you lost family or tribe members in battle, the family or tribe usually doesn't want to hear that the sacrifice really, after all, was meaningless and unimportant.

Second of all, people who negotiate for today always base their trade on future prospects as well as prior actions. Like 'please buy stuff from me because I helped keep your continent free.' Negotiators love to say things like that!

But if we can manage to toss out and forget our dead warriors and previous favors, then we can just get down to the 'what can you do for me today' conversation. Holland doesn't really look like it can do much of anything for America, so my vote would be for us to sever ties and let America go after more profitable clients.

 

[Builder]

Good point !! thats exactly why USA companies need to outsource to China for example, to stay in the race !!

Thanks for looking out for us.

Tell us what it's like living in a 3rd world country like Holland? Are you paying 70% in taxes and getting free education, fuel, insurance.....clothes....

I hear the Dutch had a lot of money & power about 300 years ago. I lurned that frum mi histery buks and watchin the histery channul. j/k

What happened? Socialism take you guys down the drain?

Don't get mad renze, just trying to be "provocative" as you call it.

 

[bontai_Joe]

Read a few posts back, and you'll read that i admitted that without hesitation:
However we dont live in the 40's and 50's anymore.

But lets dig deeper: If there werent European explorers (British, Spanish, Dutch and French) on the continent of America, still native americans would be hunting buffalo's along your continent !!

Do we, Europeans, ever look down on you because WE established modern civilisation, the basis for the current USA ??
No, because what happened that long ago, has no influence on the current global politics and economy...
Despite that, the USA is respected, and in WW2 they returned the favour helping us out against the Germans, and after that, to help us rebuild our world with the Marshall plan !

I guess you just remember what suits you...

I seem to remember that most Europeans that came to North America were escaping from religious and economic oppression in Europe, so I don't understand what thanks we would owe European countries (read ruling entities) for our creation. We kicked out a European king's government to establish our own. So I guess a thank you might be "Thanks for running your countries so badly between 1500 to 1960 that my ancestors felt the need to leave, rather than live there any more."? I always thought of the United States as a nation created by folks that no one else wanted, and by folks that were extremely unhappy with their lives and were brave enough and adventurous enough to leave their homelands and try for something better. I've been to foreign countries where people live in dirt floor huts and hope they get food for today. I saw MANY MANY people lined up in front of the US Embassy with the dream of getting to go to the US..... the lines are not as long at the other embassies, although Europe has taken in a lot of folks the past 20 years or so. So I'd say the US is still the most popular place to move to for most people in less fortunate countries. Churchill said something like "Democracy is the worst form of government on earth, except for all the others".

This has been an interesting thread. I have learned about truck technology, and read some interesting viewpoints on global economies. My shopping bias is to try to buy US produced good when possible, followed by goods produced in democratically run countries, and I try to avoid buying anything at all from dictatorships, so there are no Vietnamese sneakers in my house. But with the HUGE amount of Chinese goods flooding the American market, it's close to impossible to avoid buying Chinese goods. I'm not happy about that, but I do what I can.

 

[Renze]

See. Proves that if you troll long enough you'll catch a couple of fish. (Also notice that most of the school has left the area.)

It's a good question though about history. I'm thinking that I kind of agree with that. The past is full of actions where one side helped the other, and vice versa. So 'useless history' means to abandon consideration for all those things that happened before, and base today's decisions on today.

It's hard to pull off though. First of all, cultures always honor their dead. So if you lost family or tribe members in battle, the family or tribe usually doesn't want to hear that the sacrifice really, after all, was meaningless and unimportant.

Second of all, people who negotiate for today always base their trade on future prospects as well as prior actions. Like 'please buy stuff from me because I helped keep your continent free.' Negotiators love to say things like that!

But if we can manage to toss out and forget our dead warriors and previous favors, then we can just get down to the 'what can you do for me today' conversation. Holland doesn't really look like it can do much of anything for America, so my vote would be for us to sever ties and let America go after more profitable clients.

Hmm you're taking it to the deeper extension, not just the "brags of the day"
My comment had the only purpose to "return the favour" at the same level as the "y'all be speaking German now" remark.

For the rest, i agree with what you said: I am really interested in history, and judge the situations in my daily life, based on lessons from the past.

I didnt say that the Allied efforts in WW2 were meaningless: i just say that Americans shouldnt brag about it, 60 years later. Europeans dont brag about the past either...