Charging problem

[jimstractors]

My 1401d with a FEL doesn't seem to charge. I get 11-12 volts at the battery. I tested the alternator and get 30+- volts there. I replaced the voltage regulator and still the same at the battery. I end up having to charge the battery about once every 6 weeks in order to start the thing. (I use it 2 to 3 time a week to load manure). The battery seems to hold a good charge for that time, but if I use lights, or start 2 or 3 times a day, especially in the winter, then I have to recharge. Any ideas?

 

[kubmech]

You did'nt mention the simple stuff, so I'm just checking.
Fuse good? Alt. belt tight? Battery terminals clean? Battery cables in good condition? Igniton switch O.K? Good connection between pos. battery lead (at the starter) and d.c. output of regulator? Connection between alt. and regulator good?

 

[Thomas]

Check all wiring to your lights etc.. to make sure a bare wire not lightly making a ground..also grease,hay stuff like that hasn't built up aroung the wiring connection.

 

[Keoke]

Hi, 12 volts at battery and 30 volts at alternator means that the alternator is pumping into an open or very hi resistance circuit. Simply put, there is no connection or very hi resistance between your alternator and battery. Accordingly, the current has no where to go causing the voltage to rise to 30 volts.
If tractor has as fuse or a fuseiable link look for a blown one in the alt to bat circuit. Also check for corosion at all pulg in connectors in this circuit.
If you can't find the open then run a 10 gauge wire from alt output term to battery B+ at starter solenoid. It is not a good a idea to run alt on an open circuit like this, the 30 volts can damaged alt and voltage regulator.
Hope this helps!

cheers,

 

[kubmech]

Hey George, I think he was meauring AC volts at 30+. That current needs to be rectified to DC through the regulator before it goes to the B+ terminal. 30+ AC output from the alt. is pretty standard for this type of system.

 

[roger_scotty]

Could this be nothing more than the need for a new voltage regulator? Anyone know a quick and dirty VR test?

 

[Keoke]

Kubmech, yeah I don't know if this alternator is internal or externaly rectified and assumed internal. Seen tractors with both both types but don't have a clue as to what Yanmar is using.
A dc voltmeter will only measure about one half of the AC voltage (1/2 a sine wave) coming out of the stator tap ahead of the diodes instead of the full voltage.
Also, if he is getting 30 AC volts at alt stator then he has what looks to be a working alternator. This then takes him back to a what seems to be an alt to bat circuit problem.

cheers,

 

[jimstractors]

Thanks for the interest. I checked all the wires and connections. Everything is good, clean and tight. Battery and cables are good, too. I have no problems cranking and starting. The 30 volts AC was from the alternator. That voltage according to the book is correct, so the alternator is doing its job. Then it goes into the regulator and is supposed to come out converted to 14.5+- volts DC depending on the battery voltage/load. I already swapped regulators (a used one that I found), but the second regulator may also be bad. I think I will try a third regulator. Mine has 4 wires: 2 to the alternator, 1 to the starter motor + side, and the 4th seems to go to ground. I suspect that if there is a wiring problem, its the 4th wire.

 

[normde2001]

As near as I can tell from reading my YM240 service manual, that thing is internally rectified and you should see 30volts dc coming out of the alternator. If it's ac, You may have 1 or more bad diodes in alternator. Leonard Schaeffer did a big writeup on this in the old group. If I can find, I will post.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

jwjimbo you are on the right track. The (generator) puts out 25-30 ac volts and is converted with the regulator. I have encountered 2 different regulators for the 1401. They are not interchangable. I highly suspect both regulators you have tried.

Thanks,
Bruce
931 455 6999

 

[Keoke]

Hi, with regard to the four wires into regulator. The two out of alt are probably the the AC output. One wire is DC+ to bat battery B+ (hooked to starter solenoid). The DC negative for the bat may be the voltage housing itself or simply wire number 4. Check the color of another gnd wire (light dash or any other known gnd) and see if matches the color of the fourth wire. If it does, this is your DC negative and should go to the bat negative. I would run it there directly. If it is of a different color then the VR case could be the negative DC path to bat, (most likely) your best bet then would be to run a lead from VR case to bat neg.
If the VR case is DC neg to bat then the fourth wire is probably is the SENSOR wire. This wire goes from bat to VR to tell the VR how strong the battery is so that the VR can set the charge rate accordingly.

cheers,
The

 

[lens12]

Are the regulators you are using Yanmar ones? Bad voltage limiters/regulators are a common problem. I get many calls for them & no one that has ordered one (after checking their alternator has ever said that it didn't fix the problem. The YM2000 has a different system.

 

[Soundguy]

Bad ground reference on a volt. reg. will kill a reg fast .. not great for the alternator either.... And it does sound like it is charging into 'no load' and high range, as it is not getting proper feedback.

Soundguy

 

[jimstractors]

Len:
I'm pretty sure that these are Yanmar regs. I took one off a scrapped 1401d at my dealers. It had the same number on it as my original. I'm at work now and don't have the numbers with me, but I think it was S5601 or something like that. I will probably order a new one from you and quit screwing around with this. All indications that I can see, point to the regulator.

 

[gbirky]

Be prepared. That regulator will run around $60-$100 depending on the type.

Before you go through all that, see if you can find someplace that will test the alternator and regulator pair. I had the alternator and regulator for my YM1110D tested at a place called Auto Electric for $8. There has to be someplace near you that could to the same. Most good auto parts (NAPA for example) can test them.

Turned out my alternator was OK, but regulator was bad. Haven't replaced it yet, as I just got the newly rebuilt engine started Saturday. Man it runs nice!

Greg

 

[jimstractors]

Greg:
I might do that. I have lived with the charging problem for about a year, so its just a minor irritation. I just charge my battery about once a month or so and get 20 or so starts from it, depending how cold it gets outside.
Jim

 

[EFC]

The 1401 Alternator has a built in Bridge rectifier built into the back of the alternator.

 

[gbirky]

The alternator from the YM1110D has a bridge circuit (the guys at Auto Electric called it the diode pack) also. This does the chopping and folding so that you have only positive voltage, but it still is not DC. In simple systems, the regulator is nothing but a solid state relay that grounds the alternator when the battery voltage goes above some threshold. These simple systems use the capicitance of the battery to do the smoothing so there is no real rectifier. However, the guys at Auto Electric said my voltage regulator was actually a rectifier as well, but I find that hard to believe as the one lead from the alternator goes directly to the battery.

Greg

 

[Soundguy]

"The alternator from the YM1110D has a bridge circuit (the guys at Auto Electric called it the diode pack) also. This does the chopping and folding so that you have only positive voltage, but it still is not DC."

Not to get technical here.. but current flow in only one direction is DC. Whether it is half or full wave rectification matters not.

" In simple systems, the regulator is nothing but a solid state relay that grounds the alternator when the battery voltage goes above some threshold."

There are many ways to accomplish voltage regulation.. too numerous to mention and describe here. The method that you refer to, shunting over voltage to ground, is generally accomplished with zenir diodes, and is not the practice of choice for automotive charging systems, due to the waste and engine load. Althought the older style 2 and 3 position regulators were not much more than predetermined taps on a coil, and a handfull of support hardware. A series pass regulator circuit is more probable , and many ( most )systems use some sort of feedback based variable regulation.

" These simple systems use the capicitance of the battery to do the smoothing so there is no real rectifier. However, the "

Simply speaking, a rectifier blocks current flow in one direction. A diode for example( lets say, silicon ) has an anode, and a cathode. A positive voltage applied in a circuit to the cathode will not result in current flow.A negative voltage applied in the same circuit will result in current flow, and there will be a forward voltage drop due to the silicone junction. Generally forward voltage drops range from .2 to .6 volts. Zenirs and other diodes like schotkey barrier diodes, and epoxy rectifiers have special rules and properties. Older style selinium rectifiers also have different characteristics. In general, if a conversion from ac to dc has happened.. a rectifier is present.
Generally in low end charging systems, like NiCad or NiMhyd, a capacitor is not used because the curent is flowing into a load anyway, and a capacitor will do no good, as the voltage between the half or full wave crests are already averaged.
A higher end charging system like that in a car however, will employ capacitors and inductors 'chokes' in combination to eliminate emi and rfi which may interfere with computerized ignition, engine cpu, and the radio.


"guys at Auto Electric said my voltage regulator was actually a rectifier as well, but I find that hard to believe as the one lead from the alternator goes directly to the battery.
Greg "

Sounds like it was just a regulator, and they were extremely clueless.
If this was fun.... look at DC generators as opposed to alternators...

Soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

Here is a drawing of a common full wave bridge, aka, full wave rectifier, ake bridge rectifier. Note, that there are other ways to accomplish full wave rectification, than with 4 diodes.. transformers that are center taped for instance can employ two diodes in a slightly modified circuit to do accomplish full wave rectification. etc, etc.

Soundguy