Building up Pad site for Barn

[EddieWalker]

Sounds like your doing your on the right track. Just for anybody else who's following this, since your already set on your materials. Sand may feel like it moves around when you walk through it, but it will lck tight better than any other material to support a structure.

I use it if I have to buy or truck in any material. You don't have to worry about compacting it, just spread it out and build. It's required for fill is some parts of California with their crazy eathquake codes, and used just about nationwide for fill where available.

Your dirt fill will work fine. Its what I use on my buildings since I have lots of it and it's free.

The jumping jack, as you called it, is primarily used for compaction in trenches. It's really good at that since you have a tight space that is usually two feet wide and difficult to get in and out of. I'd never consider using one for a building pad, but I don't see why it woudn't work. Just a huge pain in the but.

Did you ask the rental company if they had any other types of compactors? There are several vibratory models that are really nice for pads. They roll along with two sets of drums and you walk behind it. Sort of like a super lawn mower, but on Fred Flinstone wheels. Again, I just use my tractor to compact while spreading, but in some small commercial jobs, I've seen these used. Never done it myself though.

Have fun,
Eddie

 

[EddieWalker]

L39Builder,

I have no doubt that you are a very compitent builder and I'm sure you have more knowledge and experience than I do. In no way was I directing my comments at you or anybody else on this forum.

I do think that you will agree with me that everyone in the trades has skills that they are better at and areas that they are not so good at.

In my experience, framers are very good at framing with wood, but are usually terrible at trim and finish work. Not all of them, but plenty of them. Interestingly enough, I've found that trim guys are also great framers!! I think it's in the eye for detail, but it's just a guess on my part.

As for builders not knowing concrete, I'll stick with that observation as it relates to my post. Most are very knowledgable on what they need to do the job, but like me and most others, if you don't deal in all aspects of a trade, than you only know a limited amount of it based on your exposure. Building a pad for a workshop or a house is pretty basic. Building overhead concrete structures is something entirely different and totally beyond my scope of understanding or knowlegde. It doesn't mean I'm a bad builder because I don't know the concrete trade, just that there's no reason for me to know it.

Pads are pretty basic and if you take your time and do it right, just about anybody can do a good job at it. The concern I had was in the original post, and some of the terms the poster used. Since I have no personal experience in his area and how things are done there, I can only reply to what he posts and my own personal experience. I'd think the same would be true will everyone here.

He suggested a few things that indicated to me that his builder wasn't a dirt or concrete guy. His reply confirmed that. There is a sub coming in to do the pour and he was getting his information from the builder. Talking directly with the cement sub will iliminate all of his confusion.

Eddie

 

[npaden]

They have a vibrating plate compactor but said that it is more for sand than dirt. It looks like it would be a lot easier to use but also looks like it wouldn't do as good of a job compacting as the jumping jack would.

I think I will try to hire someone to run the jumping jack. With a 13" wide shoe it will take 30+ passes back and forth on each layer. 30 passes of 40 feet would take about how long on a jumping jack? An hour? Two hours? If it is just an hour or 2 I think I can handle it but if not I will probably need to hire someone so I can get it done this weekend.

As I get thicker the size I'm packing will actually get smaller as by the time I get up 12" I will only be working on the very back 1/3rd of the pad but I want to make sure it is packed well so I might go over it a couple times once I'm down to the last couple layers.

Thanks again for the input.

 

[Builder]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( They have a vibrating plate compactor but said that it is more for sand than dirt. It looks like it would be a lot easier to use but also looks like it wouldn't do as good of a job compacting as the jumping jack would. )</font>

A vibratory tamper is suited for tamping sand or screenings under a dry-laid patio or tamping hot asphalt. It is more suited for "settling" fine material into place. A jumping jack is the tool you want. It is suited for compacting loose & bulky fill.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( "I think I will try to hire someone to run the jumping jack. With a 13" wide shoe it will take 30+ passes back and forth on each layer. 30 passes of 40 feet would take about how long on a jumping jack? An hour? Two hours? If it is just an hour or 2 I think I can handle it but if not I will probably need to hire someone so I can get it done this weekend.

As I get thicker the size I'm packing will actually get smaller as by the time I get up 12" I will only be working on the very back 1/3rd of the pad but I want to make sure it is packed well so I might go over it a couple times once I'm down to the last couple layers.

Thanks again for the input. )</font>

They're not that hard to handle once you get it going. Just start in the middle till you get used to how it handles. You'll find it only takes 10 minutes to get used to it, but you might be a tad sore by the end of the day.

 

[Builder]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( L39Builder,

I have no doubt that you are a very compitent builder and I'm sure you have more knowledge and experience than I do. In no way was I directing my comments at you or anybody else on this forum.

I do think that you will agree with me that everyone in the trades has skills that they are better at and areas that they are not so good at.

In my experience, framers are very good at framing with wood, but are usually terrible at trim and finish work. Not all of them, but plenty of them. Interestingly enough, I've found that trim guys are also great framers!! I think it's in the eye for detail, but it's just a guess on my part.

As for builders not knowing concrete, I'll stick with that observation as it relates to my post. Most are very knowledgable on what they need to do the job, but like me and most others, if you don't deal in all aspects of a trade, than you only know a limited amount of it based on your exposure. Building a pad for a workshop or a house is pretty basic. Building overhead concrete structures is something entirely different and totally beyond my scope of understanding or knowlegde. It doesn't mean I'm a bad builder because I don't know the concrete trade, just that there's no reason for me to know it.

Pads are pretty basic and if you take your time and do it right, just about anybody can do a good job at it. The concern I had was in the original post, and some of the terms the poster used. Since I have no personal experience in his area and how things are done there, I can only reply to what he posts and my own personal experience. I'd think the same would be true will everyone here.

He suggested a few things that indicated to me that his builder wasn't a dirt or concrete guy. His reply confirmed that. There is a sub coming in to do the pour and he was getting his information from the builder. Talking directly with the cement sub will iliminate all of his confusion.

Eddie

)</font>

Eddie,

IMO, A good builder or general contractor should have an excellent working knowledge of every trade he supervises. Otherwise, he is no better than the customer he is working for. You might find it hard to believe, but I excavate, pour concrete, lay block & brick, stucco and do framing & finish carpenty on almost every house, garage & addition we build. We also install all of our own kitchens, baths and appliances. We even do tile and landscaping when we have to. Sometimes we get help from a mason or framer, but they work alongside of me & my guys.

 

[npaden]

Okay, Here's the current plan.

I'm going to pickup the jumping jack on the way home from work tonight. I can rent it for $105 from Friday evening until 8 am Monday morning. I'm getting 3 loads of dirt delivered this afternoon and I'm going to use the tractor to spread it out and then I have a helper hired to run the jumping jack to pack it down. The way I have it calculated the first 3 loads will be good for the first layer and then I will use less dirt for each layer as I work up. (I hope I have the amount of dirt required calculated correctly)

I'm getting 3 more loads of dirt delivered on Saturday morning. I'll get another layer spread on Saturday morning before I go to work and have my helper come out and pack it late that morning. Then I'll come back from work around lunch and try to spread another layer and get that packed down before my helper has to leave. Then I'll spread another layer that evening and then either pack it myself on Sunday or get my helper come out and help Sunday afternoon depending on how things are going.

That's the tenative plan. I plan on spreading it and pack it in about 5" thick layers to get it packed in good. As we work up in height the layers are going to get smaller also.

Does this sound like a legitimate timeline for a 30x40 pad? How many times will we need to run the jumping jack over the dirt to get it compacted well? This is assuming the dirt is moist and I don't have to do a lot of watering it. If I need to water it how much is that going to screw up my timeline? If I need to water it should I water the layers lightly after I get them packed or after I get them spread but before we pack them down? I could water it Friday night or Saturday morning without messing up my timeline very much as long as I didn't make it muddy.

Thanks for the input!

Nathan

 

[Doc_Bob]

What are you paying for a load of dirt? Fill? Field run? Amount?
Bob

 

[npaden]

I'm paying $60 delivered for an 8 yard load.

3 loads of it will be some regular type fill dirt with some gravel and brick pieces mixed in that I'm going to put down first, then the next 3 loads are going to be clean fill dirt.

 

[jwstewar]

When I did my floor last summer I used about 154 tons of fill. It was a sand/gravel mixture. The garage was 30x48 with about a 2' drop going from back to front. Once I took the topsoil off I had probably 6-8" fill in the back and probably 24-30" in the front. I dug all of the topsoil out with my little NH first (my build was already built). I also dug out for the driveway at the same time. I had the dump truck just dump it back into the driveway - no mess to cleanup. Once I had everything dug out, I laid my floor drain plumbing. I then started hauling the sand/gravel mixture in one loader bucket at a time. Started by building a road up over the pipes. That was the hardest part getting up over them. Once I had a layer probably 3 - 4" thick over the whole floor I sprayed it down with the water hose (just dampening it). Let it set for a half hour or so and used the vibrating compactor that I had rented. Then started the process over. Took me some Thursday night, Friday night, all day Saturday, and most of Sunday. I picked the vibrator up on Saturday morning a returned Monday morning. I probably compacted a total of 6 or 7 times going over it 2 or 3 times each compaction. Since my garage was already built, I also used a hand tamper along the edges. Now almost 8 months later (wow, I can't believe it has been that long. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif) no problems. No cracks no settling or anything. I did put down a vapor barrier and 1" foam board underneath.

I'm no expert and don't claim to be. Right, wrong, or indifferent this is how I did it. YMMV.

 

[npaden]

Whew! Just got finished for tonight.

The kid that I hired to run the jumping jack is in for a treat tomorrow. He was already feeling it today and he only ran it for 2 hours.

Well, my timeline is going to be off a little. My dirt got here late (nearly 7) and we didn't get it all packed down tonight. I had given up on him and started to move dirt from a spot about 150 yards away one bucket at a time starting around 5:30 and finally he showed up at 7. I probably had moved about 3 or 4 yards by the time he showed up. I think about 8 trips. (I wasn't moving dirt the whole time, my helper showed up so we were messing with the jumping jack for a little while)

It is spreading out with the loader much easier than I thought it would. I can spread a dump truck load out evenly in about 20 minutes or so. Then I would get a bucket of dirt and start driving back and forth over it while the kid was running the jumping jack and we were waiting for the next load. Got the last load about 8:30 and ran with the lights on smoothing it out.

My helper is going to come back around 8 and start packing it down. I asked for the first load of dirt to get here at 9:30 so that will give him 1 1/2 hours of packing before it arrives. I think I will go to work just so I don't feel so bad with hiim out there packing it without me although I guess I could get another load of dirt in the bucket and drive back and forth. Having the dump truck with a full load driving back and forth over it would do a pretty good job of packing it. Maybe I can talk him into that! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I've got a couple pieces of PVC sticking up in the back corners of the building spot. I tried to get them about 5 or 6" deep with dirt and tried to keep the same slope as the ground around it so there would be an even 6" of new fill all around. I'm getting somewhat concerned after spreading these 3 loads out that 3 more loads isn't going to be enough, but I knew the first layer was going to take the most dirt so maybe I'll be okay. It will be easy to get more dirt if I need it.

Here's the before picture:

When the pad is complete the dirt will be to the top of the white PVC stakes.

I ended up cutting back the mesquite tree quite a bit too so I could get the tractor back there to work the dirt.

It was dark out so I couldn't get a pic tonight of the first layer spread out but I will take one in the morning.

Put about 3 hours on the tractor today. It's starting to earn it's keep!

 

[npaden]

Okay, I'm pretty much done I think. Ended up using a LOT more dirt than I thought I would and am not going to save quite as much money as I thought doing it myself, but it was a good experience and I know it is packed in good and solid.

Ended up using 8 - 8 yard dump trucks of dirt and I used around 10 yards of my own dirt from another site that I moved over 1 bucket at a time to get it all level at the end. We still have to pack in the last layer with the jumping jack tomorrow afternoon but that's about all.

I'm 2" low still, but I think I will just leave it. It may end up 3" low by the time we pack this last layer some more but even that isn't bad for a 40 foot length. I'll just let the concrete guys deal with that, I'm sure they don't get perfectly level spots very often anyway. It would be a lot of work to add one more layer for 2 or 3 more inches.

Here's a picture of me packing in the last layer of dirt:

All the pictures are in this directory, the titles are pretty much self explanatory.

http://padens.com/files/tractor/barn/

We ended up doing 4 layers and packed them down with the tractor and then the jumping jack between each layer. We ended up having to wet down the dirt before packing down each layer also. The best method seemed to be leveling out the dirt with the tractor, spraying it down really good with the hose, getting a big scoop of dirt in the bucket and driving back and forth over the site, then running over it a couple times with the jumping jack. Then repeating.

Thanks again for all the input!

 

[EddieWalker]

Nathan,

Thanks for the picture, but ..... Where are the trees???? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Eddie

 

[Builder]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">(
We ended up doing 4 layers and packed them down with the tractor and then the jumping jack between each layer. We ended up having to wet down the dirt before packing down each layer also. The best method seemed to be leveling out the dirt with the tractor, spraying it down really good with the hose, getting a big scoop of dirt in the bucket and driving back and forth over the site, then running over it a couple times with the jumping jack. Then repeating.

Thanks again for all the input!

)</font>

That's what i do. i use the dual wheels of the loaded truck and the front tires of the tractor with loaded bucket to help pack the dirt. The jumping jack does all the spots along the edges and other areas.

 

[npaden]

Okay, it was a little dark but I lightened the pic. Not going to win any photography awards but I think you get the idea.

The builder is bringing his concrete guy over tomorrow to check it out and they may start on the slab by the end of the week!

Thanks again for all the input and advice.

 

[EddieWalker]

Looks like you did a nice job of it!!

I'm assuming the doors will be on the end that you didn't build up??

What side do you plan to put the future overhang on??

The side by the house might not be very attractive to look at from the house. Overhang storage areas have a way of looking cluttered and even if your super organized, it's still not the most attractive thing to see.

The other side is where you have the big elevation change. If this is the side you plan to have it, I'd suggest you get the dirt work done for it now. It's allot easier to do it now when you have all the open space to work with. Once the building is in place, there's also going to be other "stuf" that is always in the way.

Thanks for the pics, it's fun to see a project from start to finish.

Eddie

 

[npaden]

Thanks, it seems to be packed in good. I can drive the tractor with a load of dirt in the bucket and not even leave tire tracks.

Yes the doors will be on the right side of that first picture where the ground is even with the pad. I do plan on putting a future overhang on the side closest to you in the pictures. I do have some more building up to do on the pad if I end up putting the overhang on it.

I thought about building up the pad on that side now, but I don't know if it will be 1 year or 5 years until I need it. I thought that I could just start putting a layer down periodically building it up and letting it settle on it's own. Depending on how wide I decide on making the overhang, I would be building up the pad almost 1/2 as large as the one I just did. It would probably be the smart thing to do, but right now I don't know if I can stomach the work!

Let's see, it would take 4 more dump trucks of dirt, another weekend rental of the jumping jack and maybe 10 hours of work. Probably another $500 of materials and equipment rental and if my helper can work another weekend for me. Even without the overhang that would give me a nice flat spot to park my implements I guess. I may just wait until my toothbar gets here and keep using my own dirt and building it up over time though.

I'll have to think about it.

Thanks, Nathan

 

[npaden]

Well, they are out there this morning getting the forms set.

Turns out I was 5" off level instead of 2" like I thought. I guess a transit is a little better tool for that type of thing than a $5 laser level! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif I built it up high enough in the middle, it just sloped off toward the corners.

They said they could make it work, they will just pour the slab a little thicker on those corners. They are also going to put in 24" square piers in those corners that I built up just to make sure it is good and solid. The rest of the slab will just have a 12" footer around the perimeter.

They were impressed on the packing job that we did. They had to use sledge hammers to pound in the stakes and they may have even been harder to pound in on the area that we packed than in the area at the front that was untouched.

I was off square by 2" which I thought was pretty good because I did all the measuring by myself with a 25' tape measure and squared it up using a 100' extension cord and a magic marker! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

They are waiting on concrete so it will be early next week before they pour but the forms should be set by the end of the day. I'll go ahead and continue to update this thread with the rest of the construction. Looks like I will have a barn in a couple weeks!

 

[TwinWillows]

You might want to reconsider making up the out of level w/crushed stone instead of concrete especially since you're about 3" out. Around here concrete is approaching $100/cy so the extra concrete would run you an extra $1 per sf. Crushed stone would be a a lot cheaper! Just something to consider.

 

[Builder]

I second that. 3/4" gravel @$20/yd is a lot cheaper than 'crete @ $100+/yd!!

 

[npaden]

I didn't get any pictures of the forms and rebar before they poured the cement but here are some pictures of the slab.

All the pics are in this directory if you want to look at some more: http://padens.com/files/tractor/barn/