Boxblade Scarifiers--Design and Operation Issues

glennmac · Aug 1, 2001

We have had a lot of good information on boxblade blades in the recent thread entitled "Yet Another Boxblade Question". There are also a lot of issues that I think it would be useful to discuss regarding the scarifiers.

As I understand it, there are three types of scarifier set-ups. The common one is scarifiers that are fastened by pins and that must be individually lowered. On more expensive regular boxblades and on rollover boxblades, there is a lever that lowers all the scarifiers at once. At the high end, there are hydraulically operated scarifiers.

Not having many actual boxblades to look at in this part of the country, I think it would be informative to get info on the following questions:

1. On the individual scarifier models, how many pin "depth" placements are there on your models?

2. Re individual scarifiers, some people have complained about their type of pin fasteners being hard to remove and insert. What are the "easy" and "difficult" fastener implementations that we should seek out or avoid?

3. For regular or rollover boxes with lever actuated scarifiers, how do you adjust the digging depth of the scarifiers? Only by 3ph position control? Or can the height of the individual scarifiers be adjusted up and down on the scarifier bar?

4. For hydraulic scarifiers, must all the scarifiers always extend and retract at the same time, or can you extend just some?

5. Re hydraulic scarifiers, if the hydraulics malfunction (hose leak, broken cylinder, etc.) is there a backup method to manually extend and retract the scarifiers? If not, does that mean the opportunity to resell a hydraulic scarifier box is limited to people with remote hydraulics?

6. Is draft control at all useful when using scarifiers, manual or hydraulic?

7. Regular boxblades seem to have the scarifiers positioned on the end of the box closest to the tractor, so the scrape blades are all behind the scarifiers. Rollover boxes seem to have the scarifiers on the end of the box furthest away from the tractor, so the blade and box are all in front of the scarifiers. Is having the scarifiers at the front or at the back of the box better, or worse, or it depends? In what situations?

RAllen · Aug 1, 2001

Glenn

I have a Landpride Model. Nothing fancy, just a basic model with fixed blades. There are 4 teeth. My model, 1554, has 4 adjustment holes. The number of teeth is a function of size. Larger models have more. For a K2910 four is probably best in rocky or hardpan soils. My only experience with Rollover Box blades, limited, allowed adustment to depth but you could not easily lower selected teeth. I suppose it would be possible but you would have to disassemble the rippers and take the unwanted teeth out.

With tilt control, you can limit teeth depth by selecting the angle of attack.

I find it easy and quick to manually lower the teeth on my basic boxblade. The pins are easily manipulated.

As to the rest of your questions, I will defer to those more experienced in the advanced blades use.
'
Rick

Edited by RAllen on 08/01/01 03:57 PM (server time).

glennmac · Aug 1, 2001

Rick, what kind of pins do you have? Can you describe them. I distinctly remember more than one person complaining about a particular kind of pin apparatus.

RAllen · Aug 1, 2001

Glen
The pins are basic drop down through the top leading edge. Pins secure them through holes. I have never had one jammed or otherwise difficult to remove or adjust. Been using it for about a year of fairly hard use. You might get your hands dirty and you have to get off your tractor but its not a big deal.

Rick

TWINKLE_TOES · Aug 1, 2001

Glenn,

Landpride BB1554

1. On the individual scarifier models, how many pin "depth" placements are there on your models?

Four scarifiers, Four holes spaced 2 inches apart for three cutting depths of 2", 4" & 6". Bottom hole provides no cutting action

2. Re individual scarifiers, some people have complained about their type of pin fasteners being hard to remove and insert. What are the "easy" and "difficult" fastener implementations that we should seek out or avoid?

 Mine are easy to adjust pull the clip, pull the pin. This may change with wear, but now it is quite easy and simple.

3. N/A

4. N/A

5. N/A

6. Is draft control at all useful when using scarifiers, manual or hydraulic?

not sure what your looking for here Glenn

7. Regular boxblades seem to have the scarifiers positioned on the end of the box closest to the tractor, so the scrape blades are all behind the scarifiers. Rollover boxes seem to have the scarifiers on the end of the box furthest away from the tractor, so the blade and box are all in front of the scarifiers. Is having the scarifiers at the front or at the back of the box better, or worse, or it depends? In what situations?
My sacrifiers are at the front of the box and work just fine. They could be rotated to face the back, but I have never done this and don't see a situation where it would be useful.

Did I pass? /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Al

glennmac · Aug 1, 2001

Al, seems we have established that the Landpride 1554, and probably all Landprides, have easy to use pins. Maybe it was the Howse that had the harder to use pins.

Draft control is an option on larger compacts. It is a sensing mechanism that keeps a dirt engaging implement like a plow at a constant depth below the soil. Prevents the implement from digging too deep or too shallow as it is pulled along. Just wondering whether this tractor option is helpful with boxblades.

The front/rear issue is not related to the direction the scarifiers point, but where they are mounted on the box. Picture the scarifiers being attached at the very back end of your box (pointed as they are now). That's where they are on a rollover box. (Wish I knew how to capture and post pictures.) My question relates to whether there are advantages or disadvantages to having them mounted in the front (reg box) or in the back (rollover box).

Harv · Aug 1, 2001

Glenn -

I am certainly one who complained bitterly about how difficult it was to insert/remove the ripper pins. It was so difficult, in fact, that I rarely used the rippers unless I had a really good reason to do so. Ironically, it turns out that through usage, the ripper slots have loosened up to where the pins drop in and out quite easily now. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

Of the 5 scarifiers on my Howse box blade there is still one that gives me trouble. This, however, I regard as a manufacturing defect, in that the ripper slot is positioned so close to one of the frame brackets that the shank binds against that piece of steel, frequently requiring a small sledge hammer to work it free. I could probably improve that situation with a file or grinder and a bit of elbow grease.

The attached picture is the best I could come up with to show the problem ripper and the L-shaped round pins. The rippers are obviously in the "not in use" position, but each shank has enough notches to allow two digging depths and can be mounted to face the rear if I ever think of a reason to do so.

glennmac · Aug 1, 2001

Harv, again being at the ridiculous disadvantage of not being able to see a real boxblade, I didnt expect the pin mechanism to look like that. As I interpret the picture, you drop the ripper until the notch lines up with the edge, and then you jam the pin in the other side. I can see how that could jam. I guess I pictured a pin going through the scarifier and into the box housing somehow.

RAllen · Aug 1, 2001

Glen and Harv
The Landpride Rippers are NOT attached the same way. At the top of the box the are loops or brackets. A pin slides through the loop, through the ripper tooth, through another loop and is secured by a clevis pin. Simple and easy to adjust.

I think the Landpride Website has photos. Sorry I don't have a link you might try Carvers.

Rick

RobertN · Aug 1, 2001

On a roll-over scraper, the scraping blades are in the air when the rippers are engaged.

When pulling/scraping forward, the rippers face toward the back

When pushing backwards, or smoothing, the rippers point forward.

There is a pivot on the roll over scraper. It can be place in three positions, 33 degrees apart.

I do not have a digital camera, nor do I have the graphics skills of Harv /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif. But, see the attachment; hopefully it will clear things a little.

When the rippers are used, the only control for depth is the 3pt control

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

JackIL · Aug 1, 2001

Glenn,
There seems to be a slight misunderstanding about the location of the scarifiers on a "rollover" scraper. They are not mounted "within" the box, but are completely outside of it. When the scraper is in the standard position for pulling soil forward, the scarifiers are behind the rear of the cutting edge pointing rearward and are not able to touch the soil. If you then release the latch and back up the tractor with the scraper touching the ground, it will roll 90 degrees placing the scarifiers downward to engage the soil and the latch locks it there. In this position the tractor hitch height determines the depth of the teeth in the soil--there is no cutting edge or box side member helping to gauge depth. Finally if you release the latch and drive in reverse again while the teeth are contacting the ground, it will roll another 90 degrees to position the second cutting edge onto the soil and pointing to the rear. When latched in this position, you can backfill when driving in reverse and do a very nice job of leveling and smoothing when driving forward. The teeth are now horizontal and underneath the frame of the scraper. Note that the scraper cannot roll continuously for 360 degrees since the ripper teeth would contact the structure forming the A-Frame (mast) of the 3 point hitch. It can only roll as much as 180 degrees in one sense and the back the same amount. It might be helpful to look at a photo of a rollover as you think through how it looks in the 3 configurations. There is a good photo at the Woods Website www.woodsonline.com. It is under landscape equipment/box scrapers/rollover. Hope this helps.

john_bud · Aug 1, 2001

Glenn,

I see only one question that has not been addressed, so I will give it a try.

6. Is draft control at all useful when using scarifiers, manual or hydraulic?

I DON'T have draft control, but I think after about 60 hours with my Gannon Box Blade that it would be a very nice thing to have.

Let me explain, when using the box in the normal "pull" manner, imagine the tractor going over a lump or bump in the ground. What happens with the tractor and box? Let's see. The nose of the tractor goes up first, the box diggs a little less as it goes into "smoothing" mode. Then the back wheels of the tractor go up and on the bump or lump. The box typically gets picked up and the load goes out the bottom. When the tractor goes past the lump, the box initially tips nose down and starts to dig deep then goes back to normal operations.

What do you see when you look behind you? The lump just got bigger because you dumped dirt on top of it or right in front of it and the back side of it was dug out deeper. In the words of the esteemed statesman, Homer Simpsion, DOH!

I IMAGINE that with draft control, the box would stay dead level with the ground as you go over the lumps and bumps and it is then able to wipe them down quicker.

I don't have draft control so I have to feather the 3pt control all of the time while using the box. Left hand on the wheel and right hand glued to the 3pt contol, head swiveling front to back. It only took 10 hours to get a pretty good knack at it. But then I also don't have TNT on the 3pt either, so I have only 1 lever to worry about! Who knows how long it would take to figure out 3 levers!

John Bud

JATO_RaT · Aug 2, 2001

I think draft control is OK with my hydraulic rippers setup but is not really necessary since my position control is always being used to control the depth/traction or lack of it. I think it works great though with the box scraper itself, especially since I only have 2WD. The hydraulic rippers on the Gannon and Gearmore both are 2 position adjustable. Both use a spring loaded V clip and typically requires pliers to squeeze them. The rippers on the Gearmore and Gannon are very tough. Often times I only lower one ripper, tilt the box and try to rip the very tough lava cap on a job we are currently doing. I have yet to break a shank. The old Ford box scraper I once had used U pins and although easy to adjust, the shanks broke very easy at the notch in the shank. As far as the question about hydraulic hose breaking, yes if it broke, the rippers would flop down and drag since they lock via the hydraulic cylinder as well. I have tied them up once with a chain until the hose or connector was fixed. No big deal. As far as selling it, well, its a huge bonus to have hydraulic rippers. Its also a huge bonus to put at least 2 remotes on back of your tractor and preferably 3. Even the little 2910 would benefit greatly from this kind of setup. Selling it would never be an issue, most folks with 72" and bigger boxes tend to go hydraulic. Rat...

mlmartin · Aug 2, 2001

I have a 5 1/2 foot A.T.L.A.S. box scraper with fixed blades, ~500 pounds. It has five scarifiers.

1. On the individual scarifier models, how many pin "depth" placements are there on your models?

Mine has three, Deep (~5 inches below the blade), shallow (1 inch below the blade) and "don't touch". If I find I need it, I could add and intermediate depth by spending a few minutes on each shank at the grinding wheel.

2. Re individual scarifiers, some people have complained about their type of pin fasteners being hard to remove and insert. What are the "easy" and "difficult" fastener implementations that we should seek out or avoid?

I have L shaped pins that drop in behind and parallel to the scarifier shank forcing the notches in the scarifier to capture the frame of the scarifier mounting bar. I would be hard pressed to think of a more elegant and easy to use mechanism.

7. Regular boxblades seem to have the scarifiers positioned on the end of the box closest to the tractor, so the scrape blades are all behind the scarifiers. Rollover boxes seem to have the scarifiers on the end of the box furthest away from the tractor, so the blade and box are all in front of the scarifiers. Is having the scarifiers at the front or at the back of the box better, or worse, or it depends? In what situations?

In what I've done, it depends. Having the box behind the scarifiers means that you will likely end up with material in the box. When breaking up turf, I've had the box fill with divots which I've had to take off the worksite and dump elsewhere. On the other hand, when working bare ground, material in the box means that you are doing some leveling during the scarifier pass. If I had a rototiller, the divot problem could have disappeared with a couple of tilling passes, but I don't want deep loose soil in my horse pasture.

RobS · Aug 2, 2001

Now I'm a bit confused on draft control. By these descriptions it would seem to be an advanced form of position control. I always thought it was a form of load control where the tph would raise a bit when the load increases and lower when it decreases. This would keep a constant load on the engine but would not necessarily produce a smooth surface. Can anyone clarify further /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Bird · Aug 2, 2001

Rob, I don't have draft control and have never used one, but you've got it the way a farmer neighbor described it to me. Don't see how you could use it very successfully with a box blade, although it should raise the box slightly if you get to pulling too hard instead of coming to a stop and spinning your wheels.

Bird

RobS · Aug 2, 2001

That's what I thought Bird, and I agree it might not help much in box-blading. My impression is draft control is most useful when plowing (ag type, not snow type) /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

MJB · Aug 2, 2001

I agree on how the draft control works. The system is designed to maintain a constant load on the tractor, not to keep an even depth. My father used to have an old Allis Chalmers with draft control that he used for plowing. It would work OK if the dirt were an even consistency, which of course was seldom the case. He plowed one field that was sandy on one end and heavy clay on the other. The plow would run shallow on the clay end and dig to China on the sandy end./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif I have seen some tractors with draft control that have a way to lock it out. I guess that would give you the best of both worlds.

I love the smell of diesel in the morning. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

StanInCalif · Aug 2, 2001

Right - Draft control is a "constant load" device. It is designed to keep you from having to change gears or raise/lower the 3ph when plowing large acreages. It doesn't come into play when I'm using the box blade, nor do I want it to - here I am after "constant level" not constant load. - Stan

JATO_RaT · Aug 2, 2001

Just a little clarifying for those without draft control. The sensing ability of draft control varies from tractor to tractor, the idea is much the same. When my box starts to fill it puts an additional load on the tractor. If its heavy material like you find with moist dirt, your cutting continues with the boxblade edge, the box keeps filling to the point that it either pours out the top or you loose traction. When I set the draft control to about midway on my tractor, it allows my box to fill and then without loosing traction and causing my tires (R1's) to start cutting through the soil, the draft sensing forces the inner hydraulic cylinder to lift the upper lift arms to the point that the load is reduced so that I can continue pulling with no or little slipping at all. Bird, your probably familiar with farmers who use a Kelly ripper (single ripper on the back), when they encounter hard soil, the draft control will raise the ripper high enough to regain traction, the draft will also allow it to drop back down. My experience is, the bigger the tractor, the more effective draft control is. My tractor weighs in at about 7000lbs and without 4WD, its pretty easy for my fully loaded boxscraper (1000lbs not including the weight of the dirt) to bog down my tractors traction. When it does, my tires cut a hole through the surface very quickly and my only option without draft control is to carefully monitor and adjust my position control or adjust my top link. Draft control is pretty slick, I still don't know though that with a new 4wd tractor that I would add it on if its an option, Rat...