Barndominium/Shop or "real" House?

[ovrszd]

Maybe this is why some builders are recommending the exterior and roof is sheathed before the steel goes on...

Probably.

 

[ovrszd]

In the shop area, I have always planed on putting steel on the ceiling & walls (no drywall) and doing conduit over that. Living space, will have drywall so will be more traditional wiring.

I think it just makes sense in a shop to use EMT conduit and metal boxes.

Except I guess where I have to for the fire separattion between the shop and living space.

Absolutely use EMT conduit in the shop.

 

[ovrszd]

I meant my stick frame design. The builders don't want to mess with it due it being unconventional. And I could not bring myself to spend ~$300k on a house design picked from a book that I really don't like.

My intentions were to build both a house and a shop, however once I started getting estimates, building both is simply not an option for me unless I win the lotto.

The shop is likely where I will spend 90% of my time when I'm not sleeping. And I want the shop now while I can use it not in 10 years when I save up enough to finally build a shop. And I think the costly part is the living space, not so much the shop. Initially the shop will have a stone floor and be uninsulated.

I don't want to plan things thinking it will burn down or I will be in a wheelchair. If I'm in a wheelchair I won't be living there.

I average 3 hrs per day in my house not asleep. I'd go nuts without my shop.

 

[garc]

It is a wonderful thing to design your own house and be involved with its construction. "This is MY house." It is a very powerful feeling when you walk in to YOUR house, and you designed it. And most of it worked perfectly. And very fun, to give the 50 cent tour to a guest once it is finished.

Couldn't agree more! Took me a full year full time to evolve the design and complete the build of my house. There were no surprises with the living space once the drywall was up thanks to 3D software and virtual walkthroughs. Twenty years later I still marvel every day at what a good fit these walls provide!

 

[civilian]

In regards to being in a wheelchair and doing the things I imagine the OP doing, it can be done. I think he has the potential to accomplish this. I say this because I bought a mower on the Craigslist and went to pick it up. The guy said he would help me load it. When I first say the guy, I'm thinking he can't help me, he's in a wheelchair. Ha, he showed me up. He wheeled the engine lift out and had the mower deck in my truck in no time. I was amazed. He had a building with 4 or 5 older John Deeres in various stages of rebuilding. He figured out how to do this work from the wheelchair. So I think if the Barno suits the OP, go for it. I know what it is to want the shop at the same place as I live. Jon

 

[sunandsand]

EMT in the shop - definitely. Use 3/4" instead of 1/2" because eventually you will find that you need to add another wire or two inside. 3/4" makes that SO much easier. GFCI's at feed points. (I have a row of outlets down each side of the building, 8 feet apart. GFCI at the source. I discovered that turning on fluorescent lights would trip the GFCI, so I ran a separate circuit for just the lights, two extra wires (hot and neutral) and had plenty of room to do it in 3/4" conduit - would have been very tough in 1/2" and NEC doesn't like to see lots of wires crowded together in small conduit.

Use 12 gauge wire instead of 14 gauge wire. A little more expensive, a little tougher to work with, but you'll have capacity (and no fire hazard) when you plug in a big drill or a table saw.


Builder's risk insurance. I had it, the agent said they would renew it ONCE, they expect you to be done in 24 months. YMMV.


Wallboard - use inorganic wallboard (fiberglass faced) instead of standard paper faced gypsum board. Inorganic doesn't support mold, if it gets wet, even REALLY wet, it will just dry out without even staining. Beats the pants off regular wallboard which is destroyed if it gets wet and you have to replace it. Costs about 50 cents a sheet more than standard wallboard, it is installed and finished exactly the same way, takes paint just as well.

We had a lot of houses in this area damaged by flooding from Hurricane Nicole (not ours, thankfully) and some of the drywall guys didn't want to use inorganic because they knew they wouldn't get called back next time - inorganic simply isn't bothered by water.

Definitely check with FEMA - if you are in, might be in, could possibly be in a flood zone "someday" put your home on fill, make it flood proof when you build it. Flood insurance has a $250K maximum benefit (I think) and if there is a mortgage (either yours or for whoever might buy it someday) the lender will INSIST on flood insurance, no insurance, no loan, and it isn't cheap - the additional cost could disqualify a potential buyer.

I think I'd want a separate shop and dwelling - if there is a fire, as was mentioned, you've lost it all.

People tend to have (and want) big houses because we accumulate so much "stuff". The house costs $200/$300 sf, a pole barn/utility building costs $75/$100 sf. Why pay $300/sf to store "stuff"? We have an 843 sf house (two people) and a 4,500 sf hangar/barn/workshop and the darn thing is FULL (how did that happen?)


Also, the big building is steel with a concrete slab, and there are LOTS of fire extinguishers in it. I'm seriously considering a sprinkler system - I'd rather a small area of "stuff" gets ruined instead of having a total loss.

I've read that homes with sprinklers (now required by code here) have an average loss of about a thousand dollars from a fire because the sprinkler keeps it localized and often puts it out. Equivalent homes without sprinklers are often a total loss - everyone around here LOVES wood frame homes, especially the builders (because they can use cheaper low skill subs), even when the houses are quite expensive. (Wood is for hippies - steel is forever.)

Fire Marshal says we're supposed to have 1,000 GPM available for an hour (if there is no city water, hence no hydrants), and 60,000 gallons of water will ruin whatever doesn't get burned up. A house fire is a disaster, no two ways about it, so build with a thought towards non-combustible construction and really think about sprinklers. I've read sprinkler systems cost something like $1 per sf of the house, probably more now, but definitely worth it.

Good thread - I've picked up some really good ideas for our own upcoming addition.

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida

 

[ETD66SS]

Builder's risk insurance. I had it, the agent said they would renew it ONCE, they expect you to be done in 24 months. YMMV.

I'm definitely going to check on this soon. When I say I'd be finishing it myself, I mean by myself, not hiring it out. So I would likely need more than 24 months...

I'd rather design in sprinklers than build separate structures, again, because a fire "could" happen and I "could" "lose it all". I have a relative who lived in a shop with living space for multiple decades and they have not "lost it all". And anyone with an attached garage or even a garage that is in close proximity to their house where they do welding & grinding are in the same boat as far as fire destroying the living space.

As far as floodplain, I went through all that when I bought the property, and it's nowhere near the 100/500 year floodplains (10's of miles away form the floodplain), it still isn't with the maps from 2010.

 

[rScotty]

SNIP.....

Definitely check with FEMA - if you are in, might be in, could possibly be in a flood zone "someday" put your home on fill, make it flood proof when you build it. Flood insurance has a $250K maximum benefit (I think) and if there is a mortgage (either yours or for whoever might buy it someday) the lender will INSIST on flood insurance, no insurance, no loan, and it isn't cheap - the additional cost could disqualify a potential buyer.

SNIP....

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida

Yes, we went through a flood and a lot of town meetings with the FEMA representatives - both local, state, and regional reps since the whole area was declared an official federal disaster area.. About the last thing anyone wants to do when digging out after a flood is to go to late night insurance town meetings, but we sure did learn a lot.

One of the first things we found out is that FEMA coverage stops at the exterior paint on the walls of the primary dwelling. FEMA doesn't cover disconnected buildings or even exterior electrical or watering outlets on the primary residence - because those things stick out past the exterior painted surface.
FEMA does cover a garage as long as they are connected to the house. No exterior anything.

FEMA does NOT cover contents of the house or tools/outbuildings/fences at all, only structural damage to the primary residence.

It is true that FEMA has a $250,000 max, although what they dont tell you until the meetings with the FEMA rep is that in order to qualify for the max you have to sign the property over to them. Property and whatever remains on the property.

Not only that, but if your claim is somewhere near to the max - the actual % number is not publicized and subject to change - but somewhere over 70 to 80% of max is where FEMA has the OPTION of refusing payment unless you sign over the property. That is not negotiable.

Oh, and they get to raise rates if you file. Our claim was modest, but our FEMA insurance went from $600 to over $5000 dollars per year.

The moral to all this is: FEMA insurance is a contract; read the fine print.
rScotty

 

[sunandsand]

"Could" and "might" is part of risk management. I've never fallen off a motorcycle but that is no guarantee that I won't sometime in the future.

I'm happy and glad for your relative who has had no incidents with his combined house and shop - but remember what stock prospectuses say "Past performance is no guarantee of future performance". A sample of one is an anecdote, insurance companies work on aggregating data so they have a clearer idea of what the risk factors actually are. (Risk for insurance companies . . . "Our competitor's CEO just got a bigger yacht, we need to raise our rates so our CEO can have a bigger one than our competitor's.")

He's been lucky, but luck is not a strategy. While I can't stand insurance companies, I understand that paying their premiums is a part of fastening the seat belts in your life.

We fasten our seat belts even though we don't expect to get into an accident, but we are cognizant that there IS a possibility we might, and if we DO get into an accident, then it is too late to fasten them. Same thing with ROPS on our tractors - we don't expect to flip one, but if it happens we are darn glad it was there.

Next door neighbor accidentally started a significant brush fire, the wind shifted and it got away from him. I had flames higher than my hangar - I have a screen grab from the local news - and the FD told me I didn't seem very worried - I said while, yes, I was concerned, I wasn't particularly nervous because steel and concrete don't burn very well. No damage here, it just smelled like smoke for about a week.

Same neighbor had a buddy's pickup camper parked next to his DIY storage/hangar/shop facility - four 40' containers plus a fabric roof over curved trusses. The truck was the LOWEST thing in the area, and it got hit by lightning. The propane bottles exploded, the FD was on the scene in under five minutes. The truck and camper burned right to the ground, the heat was intense enough to set some stuff in one of the containers on fire.

Took about an hour for them to put everything out, he lost a lot of supplies as well as a 600cc Yamaha motorcycle and some ATVs, all off which were in the container which was next to the pickup/camper, and the radiated heat from that set things on fire inside the sealed, steel container.

If his building had been wood, it would have been completely destroyed, along with everything in it. (Two airplanes, a Kubota tractor, a pontoon boat, an unfinished kit airplane and much more.


Accidental fires are a serious problem, and while it hasn't happened to ME (yet) that doesn't mean it won't. I'd rather "harden" my structures in advance so if the worst does happen the damage is minimal and I won't have to "start over" because all my tools, toys and house burned to the ground.

If nothing happens, and I never do have a problem, that's fine, all I spent was a little extra money on something I turned out not needing at all. If I was some kind of yuppie (ugh), I'd probably spend more at Starbucks in a year than what a one-time expense for a sprinkler system would cost.


You are in the very enviable position of being able to start with a clean sheet of paper, why not make your project as disaster-resistant as possible?

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida

 

[ovrszd]

"Could" and "might" is part of risk management. I've never fallen off a motorcycle but that is no guarantee that I won't sometime in the future.

I'm happy and glad for your relative who has had no incidents with his combined house and shop - but remember what stock prospectuses say "Past performance is no guarantee of future performance". A sample of one is an anecdote, insurance companies work on aggregating data so they have a clearer idea of what the risk factors actually are. (Risk for insurance companies . . . "Our competitor's CEO just got a bigger yacht, we need to raise our rates so our CEO can have a bigger one than our competitor's.")

He's been lucky, but luck is not a strategy. While I can't stand insurance companies, I understand that paying their premiums is a part of fastening the seat belts in your life.

We fasten our seat belts even though we don't expect to get into an accident, but we are cognizant that there IS a possibility we might, and if we DO get into an accident, then it is too late to fasten them. Same thing with ROPS on our tractors - we don't expect to flip one, but if it happens we are darn glad it was there.

Next door neighbor accidentally started a significant brush fire, the wind shifted and it got away from him. I had flames higher than my hangar - I have a screen grab from the local news - and the FD told me I didn't seem very worried - I said while, yes, I was concerned, I wasn't particularly nervous because steel and concrete don't burn very well. No damage here, it just smelled like smoke for about a week.

Same neighbor had a buddy's pickup camper parked next to his DIY storage/hangar/shop facility - four 40' containers plus a fabric roof over curved trusses. The truck was the LOWEST thing in the area, and it got hit by lightning. The propane bottles exploded, the FD was on the scene in under five minutes. The truck and camper burned right to the ground, the heat was intense enough to set some stuff in one of the containers on fire.

Took about an hour for them to put everything out, he lost a lot of supplies as well as a 600cc Yamaha motorcycle and some ATVs, all off which were in the container which was next to the pickup/camper, and the radiated heat from that set things on fire inside the sealed, steel container.

If his building had been wood, it would have been completely destroyed, along with everything in it. (Two airplanes, a Kubota tractor, a pontoon boat, an unfinished kit airplane and much more.


Accidental fires are a serious problem, and while it hasn't happened to ME (yet) that doesn't mean it won't. I'd rather "harden" my structures in advance so if the worst does happen the damage is minimal and I won't have to "start over" because all my tools, toys and house burned to the ground.

If nothing happens, and I never do have a problem, that's fine, all I spent was a little extra money on something I turned out not needing at all. If I was some kind of yuppie (ugh), I'd probably spend more at Starbucks in a year than what a one-time expense for a sprinkler system would cost.


You are in the very enviable position of being able to start with a clean sheet of paper, why not make your project as disaster-resistant as possible?

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida

Sounds like you built exactly what you wanted/needed.

I'm very confident the OP will do so too.