B2400 starting problem finally solved

[Henro]

VRSW said: I ask the parts guy....."is there anything special about this relay or is this a standard 12v relay?" The parts guy says that there is nothing at all special about it.....just a standard 12v relay. It's not even a weatherpack relay.....it's just like this one:"

This is actually incorrect. But what do parts guys know?

The relay in the John Deere kit is special, in that it is designed to pick up at a much lower than nominal 12 VDC. I checked the specs a while back when I put the JD kit relay on my BX 2200. The JD included relay energizes at something like six voits, and drops out at 4 V or something like that. I posted the exact values in a similar thread somewhere here.

Regardless, I have concluded, as you have, that a standard 12 V relay is very likely to work satisfactory as the solution to the "click-click" problem. If I were to do it again, I would use a standard cheap 12V relay, instead of buying the John Deere kit. The specifications of the relay used in the JD kit are better, but good enough is good enough, and the standard relay likely is good enough in most cases.

Bill

 

[rdsaustintx]

BUMPING this thread. This should should be a "sticky" on the Kubota forum!!!

2004 BX23 1300 hours. The last few years have admittedly been less maintenance-intensive. But I have been playing "click bingo" on startup for at least a decade (sometimes starts, often just clicks). Yeah, new batteries, checking fuses, cleaning/adjusting switches, douching out the ignition switch, etc. But it ALWAYS came back. Some days just gave up, sort of dreaded using the thing. Was considering new starter assembly...

This weekend I put the John Deere AM107421 kit in. Takes 15 minutes total. Connectors fit perfectly.

WOW. It really, really works. In love with my tractor again.

Sort of amazed how many threads still show up around intermittent starting, with the same old symptoms and (vain) troubleshooting tips. Simply too much voltage drop through all the switches on older machines and this fixes it.

THANK YOU TBN and Kubmech!

 

[Jbfla]

Need one more post to be able to post links.......:confused3:

jb

 

[Jbfla]

Thought I would add pictures to my original Post, but am unable to edit.

Relay mounted to alternator bolt:



Relay wiring:





I was also curious if the safety switches would be bypassed using the JD relay kit.

The gear lever (hydro transmission) still needs to be in the neutral position.

The PTO lever still needs to be in the disconnect position.

But I no longer have to depress the clutch pedal to start the engine.

jb

Unable to edit my post.

Reposting photos:

No starting problems since the JD kit was installed....5 years ago.

jb

 

[JWR]

Kubota l4200. Though for sure the John Deere relay kit would fix it but still get the same issue. turn key, click or slow crank and nothing. Thinking it must be the starter selenoid but I'm unsure how to pinpoint that before taking the starter off. Any suggestions?

thanks

This has been an amazing thread ! Literally going on for more than 10 years !! I certainly have the problem with my BX2200. Let me offer a few comments. (I am an electrical engineer, which proves nothing, but lets you know my background; been fussing with tractors for more than 50 years. Much more so in the last 20.
1) I believe this problem is much more subtle than a starter solenoid/relay. The reason Virvis still had the same issue after installing the JD relay is because that is not the problem in the first place AND because it sometimes works and sometimes does not ... regardless of the relay.
2) About relays: essentially ALL low voltage (12v and vicinity) relays are NOT very sensitive to input voltage. Most will work on a fairly wide range of voltage. Voltage sensing relays exist but they sure are not put on tractors!
3) There are some very good clues here. I suspect most, if not all, reporting this problem will confirm that they hear the relay click in yet cannot get starter motion. That tells you right there that the relay/solenoid is NOT the problem nor the solution.
4) Here are a few more clues: a) Reaching in to the starter housing and tapping on it with a socket extension or other heavy steel rod will cause the starter to work on the next try EVERY TIME in my experience. b) That narrows the problem to the starter itself OR the electrical connections to it. c) Almost always jarring the machine by towing the tractor on concrete a few feet backwards (using my truck) typically means it will start on the next try. I won't say "always" because I've only done that a few times.
5) Chances are that those of you replacing the relay have rattled the connections, made slightly better connections, tightened some cables, etc. which delivered slightly more voltage to the starter, not the relay. It is also possible that the JD relay is providing less voltage drop on the way to the starter but I doubt that. I would bet that replacing the Kubota relay would have done exactly the same thing (no more, no less) as putting in the JD relay. It is POSSIBLE that the secondary side of the relays are getting corrosion or just crudded up enough to cause some voltage drop across the relay.
6) The reason I mention those things in 5) above is that -- whatever the internal starter issue may be -- it is obviously MARGINAL and not some kind of major go-no-go issue. So slightly better voltage to the starter is very likely to overcome the problem at any one moment. Notice everyone says that using a jump start typically results in the starter working -- probably because that provides a little more voltage to the starter. Cleaning and tightening all terminals and ground bolts, etc. is a fine thing to do (which I did) but is not really the long-term fix.
7) I am convinced that the issue is some sort of internal starter problem. I'll wager no user ever had this happen in the first year or two with a brand new tractor.
8) I'd like to see someone do the research (and seek assist via Kubota or better yet the starter manufacturer) to find out what other machines use the same starter,whether they have had similar issues, and educated ideas of what the real problem is. I say with comfort it is NOT the relay and is almost certainly the starter itself. As with any debugging problem it is much harder because you can't make it fail and it only does it "sometimes."

I'm interested in other comments.

THIS IS BAD INFO ABOVE > I WAS WRONG BACK THEN> There are TWO kinds of issues causing similar problems described in this thread -- one has to do with a sticky starter (some internal starter issue) and the much more common one does involve using a John Deere relay kit. Identical content and function to a similar kit sold by Kubota in 2022 + which they call "a hard start kit."

 

[Jbfla]

Re: B2400 starting problem finally solved,,m

............ I certainly have the problem with my BX2200...........
I'm interested in other comments.

Thanks for your thoughts on the starting problem.

How did you solve the problem with your BX?

I don't disagree with your analysis, but if replacing the relay solved my starting problem (for 5 years so far) and kept me from having to buy a new starter, I'm OK with the solution.

jb

 

[JWR]

Re: B2400 starting problem finally solved,,m

Thanks for your thoughts on the starting problem.

How did you solve the problem with your BX?

I don't disagree with your analysis, but if replacing the relay solved my starting problem (for 5 years so far) and kept me from having to buy a new starter, I'm OK with the solution.

jb

Sure, if it solved your problem for 5 years running that has to be a good thing. I do not think that buying a new starter is called for in any of these cases. It may also be an indication that there are 2 kinds of somewhat related issues with the same symptoms. I have not solved my problem, just learned to deal with it for the time being. Maybe once out of 8 or 10 times the problem crops up and I tap the starter with a rod and light hammer tap or drag it out where I can reach it better and then it (usually) no longer needs even the hammer tap. Eventually I'll get around to researching the problem more if no one else does. Might be that taking the starter apart and cleaning it up would drive the problem away, in my case, for a few years.

I want to talk to my local starter and electric motor repair shop first (which is Amish and I can't just call them...)

 

[Henro]

JWR,

As you say (I think you said, you wrote too much for me to digest at the moment as I am taking a break from chores) there are many possible reasons for starting issues.

My background is also electrical, few decades as an engineer in heavy industry, mainly electrical. But like you said, who cares?

In my case, the BX2200 intermittent "click, click no start" issue was 100 percent immediately solved by installing the JD kit.

By the way, the Kubota relay you mention in point 5 of your post does not exist. The JD kit inserts a relay as an addition.

After installing the JD relay, (which by the way is special and although rated at 12 VDC, actually will energize and much lower voltage, something like 7 volts or so, and not de-energize until the applied voltage drops to about 4 volts), I since concluded that ANY small relay would probably work just as well. The reason being that the current requirements of a small DC relay is so much smaller than the starter solenoid, that voltage drop across safety interlock switches would become basically irrelevant, at least in the medium term.

Like I said, I did not digest your entire post. I think you were saying there are at minimal several possible reasons for a tractor not starting. Each needs to be diagnosed and rectified.

I don't think you were writing off the use of an interposing relay as a waste of time, which it certainly is not. The issue with voltage drop across interlock switches on the BX and I assume on JD tractors is pretty well documented.

The fix depends on the problem. It has been around three years since I installed that interposing relay on my BX. I actually forgot I had had the issue until seeing this thread today. I might have even posted in this thread earlier for all I know... When I clicked on the tread it took me to the first unread post...

 

[JWR]

Yeah, verily. I just assumed there was a similar Kubota relay being replaced by the Deere. Since there is not, it seems extremely likely that the the Deere relay is reducing the voltage drop between the battery and the solenoid which apparently makes a difference.

Since the Kubota certainly has a solenoid (which I hear closing) one wonders why the solenoid has trouble being energized and yet we hear it (?) I guess I need to find a circuit diagram instead of making "normal" assumptions. Has anyone posted a diagram?

 

[victor43]

Update: I originally started this thread in 2004. Great to see that it is still providing help. The relay has been in my B2400 for 16 years now and the tractor has never failed to start on the first try. Whatever the reason, the relay has provided a permanent solution for me. Thanks again Kubmech.

 

[Gator6x4]

Yeah, verily. I just assumed there was a similar Kubota relay being replaced by the Deere. Since there is not, it seems extremely likely that the the Deere relay is reducing the voltage drop between the battery and the solenoid which apparently makes a difference.

Since the Kubota certainly has a solenoid (which I hear closing) one wonders why the solenoid has trouble being energized and yet we hear it (?) I guess I need to find a circuit diagram instead of making "normal" assumptions. Has anyone posted a diagram?

The click no start has been around for years. I purchased a Cub Cadet 2084 in 1993 and after about two weeks it developed the problem. Repair people would say live with it we cannot find anything wrong. Then I met an old retired engineer whose hobby was solving electrical problem on vehicles.

After some study he advised the problem was being caused by safety relays wired into the system to prevent people from getting off the mower when running and sticking their hand under the mowing deck to remove clumps of wet grass or backing up over some child.

He advised the click no start was being caused by a true 12+ Volt signal not being sent to the starter solenoid. He advised by incorporating a relay into the system wired so the weak signal coming from the ignition switch collapsed the relay to ground which would then send a true 12+ volt to the starter solenoid and the unit would then start. He wired a relay into the start circuit of the Cub Cadet 2084 and it has been starting correctly every since. The John Deere relay kit mentioned previously came out later. Cub Cadet also came out with a kit.

Here is a wiring diagram provided to me by someone that also addresses how to wire a relay into the starting system to eliminate the click no start problem. The relay and fuse holder can be purchased from any local auto parts store. The auto parts store can also provide the wiring. Use the diagram if you want to eliminate the click no start problem.View attachment No start wiring diagram.jpg

 

[JWR]

Gator6x4, thanks for the input. Good info. Based on your diagram the relay is providing "more" current to the solenoid. That clearly indicates that (for whatever reason) the solenoid is not getting adequate current during starting at times. One would have to think it is marginal all the time and just "working most of the time" without the relay. Apparently any means of providing more current to the solenoid during initial start triggering works and from all the anecdotes from many people, works well. My remaining puzzle is why, then, does tapping on the starter also clear the problem for the moment? Maybe multiple issues or maybe that just moves the brushes or connections inside the starter a tiny bit allowing more current flow? Seems far fetched. I'm really wanting to discuss this with my Amish friends in the starter/generator/motor repair business. Good discussion !

 

[Gator6x4]

Gator6x4, thanks for the input. Good info. Based on your diagram the relay is providing "more" current to the solenoid. That clearly indicates that (for whatever reason) the solenoid is not getting adequate current during starting at times. One would have to think it is marginal all the time and just "working most of the time" without the relay. Apparently any means of providing more current to the solenoid during initial start triggering works and from all the anecdotes from many people, works well. My remaining puzzle is why, then, does tapping on the starter also clear the problem for the moment? Maybe multiple issues or maybe that just moves the brushes or connections inside the starter a tiny bit allowing more current flow? Seems far fetched. I'm really wanting to discuss this with my Amish friends in the starter/generator/motor repair business. Good discussion !

You can measure the voltage at the solenoid when you are getting the clicking sound and see if it is equal to battery voltage. Tapping a starter with a hammer is an old trick to jar and move the starter armature. This allow the armature in the starter to move beyond the dead spot in the armature and start spinning. When talking to your Amish friends ask them about armature dead spots and defective brushes in the starter if the starter has brushes.

 

[JWR]

You can measure the voltage at the solenoid when you are getting the clicking sound and see if it is equal to battery voltage. Tapping a starter with a hammer is an old trick to jar and move the starter armature. This allow the armature in the starter to move beyond the dead spot in the armature and start spinning. When talking to your Amish friends ask them about armature dead spots and defective brushes in the starter if the starter has brushes.

Good idea, in the category of "Why in heck did I not think to do that?" Will definitely keep all this in mind when I visit the repair shop.

 

[CADplans]

The click no start has been around for years. I purchased a Cub Cadet 2084 in 1993 and after about two weeks it developed the problem.

Since the 2084 Cub Cadet was mentioned,, I will tell how I fixed the starting issue when it popped up on a 2284 Cub Cadet that I owned,,

I purchased the Cub Cadet right after a complete new engine had been installed, including the starter.
The tractor had less than 10 hours on the new engine install,, and "CLICK" !!

I did not know about the "relay fix" ,, but, I looked at the battery cables, and I considered them to be VERY thin gauge.

I had the tools, terminals,and the #2 welding cable, so I fabricated new cables from the battery to ground and the starter,,
(NOTE: I had previously implemented this same "fix" a decade earlier on a Cub Cadet 1872,,)

The heavier cables fixed the issue on both of the Cub Cadets.

Manufacturers can save a LOT of $$$ by installing marginally sized wire in a tractor.
I think the cables on the 1872 may have been #10 wire,, positively no larger than #8,,

The #2 wire made sure there was plenty of voltage at the starter..

 

[JWR]

CADplans, I like the simplicity of just using larger starter cable if that is an answer. Certainly the relay idea just provides more starting current and maybe that is the core issue. I gotta get out from behind this pc and out to the garage and poke into my BX2200... One thing that immediately comes to mind is: Are the starter cables all that small ? The engine and the starter motor are rather small on a BX2200. Wonder also ... Why do we never ever hear of such a problem with automotive cases?

 

[Gator6x4]

CADplans, I like the simplicity of just using larger starter cable if that is an answer. Certainly the relay idea just provides more starting current and maybe that is the core issue. I gotta get out from behind this pc and out to the garage and poke into my BX2200... One thing that immediately comes to mind is: Are the starter cables all that small ? The engine and the starter motor are rather small on a BX2200. Wonder also ... Why do we never ever hear of such a problem with automotive cases?

The problem surfaced on tractors and lawn mowers when the following was added to stop people from hurting themselves.

1. Seat safety switch. Have to be in seat or unit will not start.

2. Neutral safety switch. Have to be in neutral or unit will not start and run over #1 son hanging on the front.

3. Reverse mow safety switch. To stop people from backing over children when mowing deck is engaged.

4. Forward mow safety switch. Have to be in seat before deck will engage.

5. I am sure I missed a couple more safety switches that the current has to flow through before it reaches the starter. Each switch reducing the voltage as it passes through.

 

[JWR]

Those things add some voltage drop headed for the trigger of the solenoid but they do not affect the voltage or current on the heavy cable side. Right?

 

[CADplans]

Those things add some voltage drop headed for the trigger of the solenoid but they do not affect the voltage or current on the heavy cable side. Right?

Exactly the opposite,, small cables add some voltage drop headed for the trigger of the solenoid

The instant the starter tries to start, the starter pulls current, further dropping the voltage,, kinda like trying to fill a swimming pool with a squirt gun, instead of a fire hose,,,

 

[JWR]

You said "small cables add some voltage drop headed for the trigger of the solenoid" which is the same thing I said, not the opposite. I was trying to say that all those various safety switches in series affect only the trigger for the solenoid, NOT the heavier battery-cable-sized main lead to the solenoid. Sure, once the starter motor is turning it is pulling lots of current through the larger cable but that is only after an effective trigger of the solenoid has already occurred.

AND, this really makes me wonder another thing: The clicking we all hear when the starter will not run may well be some other relay (or ??) up inside the steering column sheet metal rather than the solenoid. I'm going to have to get a helper to listen next time the problem occurs and see WHERE the clicking is coming from.

By the way, I just took the hood off my BX2200 and that cable from the battery to the solenoid is very direct, no detours, no stops. It is NOT small thin guage and looks just as robust as the battery cable on much larger engines. And only about 26" long. One thing is certain in my mind, that cable (battery to solenoid) is not the issue. Speculation about it being undersized was mentioned in Post # 75 in the context of a Cub Cadet. That's not a problem on BX2200s.