Axle location question

[joshuabardwell]

I am confused. What are your hitch limits? Please post and put my mind at ease.

Well, I reached out to the dealer, and asked whether I should believe the manual (the online one, not the one in my glovebox, which appears to be incomplete), which says 3500 lbs GTW / 350 lbs TW, or the online towing guide, which says 5000 lbs GTW / 500 lbs TW. The dealer said go with whatever the manual says. Sorry to say, but it looks like my 13,000 lb tow capacity truck and its 12,000 lb GTW hitch are going to be no better than a little SUV until I get a weight-distributing hitch. How about that?

 

[jejeosborne]

Well, I reached out to the dealer, and asked whether I should believe the manual (the online one, not the one in my glovebox, which appears to be incomplete), which says 3500 lbs GTW / 350 lbs TW, or the online towing guide, which says 5000 lbs GTW / 500 lbs TW. The dealer said go with whatever the manual says. Sorry to say, but it looks like my 13,000 lb tow capacity truck and its 12,000 lb GTW hitch are going to be no better than a little SUV until I get a weight-distributing hitch. How about that?

I was also surprised to see that low of a number. People in that link I keep referring to, changed out their hitch to "solve" their problem. I still feel the WD setup is safer because it spreads the load across the truck frame and adds weight to the front axle of the truck aiding in stopping. You should be able to find a used WD hitch for around $150.

 

[joshuabardwell]

I was also surprised to see that low of a number. People in that link I keep referring to, changed out their hitch to "solve" their problem. I still feel the WD setup is safer because it spreads the load across the truck frame and adds weight to the front axle of the truck aiding in stopping. You should be able to find a used WD hitch for around $150.

I tend to agree with you. Ultimately, it's the holes in the frame that the bolts go through that is what holds the hitch on. Maybe the higher-rated hitches have more holes and more bolts? I dunno.

Any suggestions on where to look for the used WD hitch? New, they run around $400, so that's a hefty discount. Craigslist is an obvious choice... Should I be concerned about damage or abuse? Anything non-obvious to look for?

I have to say, last night I was pretty mad at the hitch manufacturers for not making it clearer that the weight ratings of the hitches assumed a WD setup. I went over to etrailers.com and looked, and sure enough, none of the Class IV or V hitches I looked at bothered to mention their non-WD capacity (although if you read down through the specs, they did mention that a WD hitch was required). As I did more research, I realized that class III and lower hitches did list both specifications, and I wondered whether the issue is that it's just assumed, if you're using a Class IV or V hitch, that you'll be using a WD setup, because there's not much point in going that big without one.

 

[jejeosborne]

I tend to agree with you. Ultimately, it's the holes in the frame that the bolts go through that is what holds the hitch on. Maybe the higher-rated hitches have more holes and more bolts? I dunno.

Any suggestions on where to look for the used WD hitch? New, they run around $400, so that's a hefty discount. Craigslist is an obvious choice... Should I be concerned about damage or abuse? Anything non-obvious to look for?

I have to say, last night I was pretty mad at the hitch manufacturers for not making it clearer that the weight ratings of the hitches assumed a WD setup. I went over to etrailers.com and looked, and sure enough, none of the Class IV or V hitches I looked at bothered to mention their non-WD capacity (although if you read down through the specs, they did mention that a WD hitch was required). As I did more research, I realized that class III and lower hitches did list both specifications, and I wondered whether the issue is that it's just assumed, if you're using a Class IV or V hitch, that you'll be using a WD setup, because there's not much point in going that big without one.

Yeah craigslist would be the preference. My way of searching craigslist is SearchTempest - All of craigslist. One Search.
It searches a radius from you zip code. Just check for bent bars, unusual wear on the pivot points. Thats about it. If sway is ever an issue, get one with built in sway control like the equalizer brand. Those are awesome but with a price.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Well, I reached out to the dealer, and asked whether I should believe the manual (the online one, not the one in my glovebox, which appears to be incomplete), which says 3500 lbs GTW / 350 lbs TW, or the online towing guide, which says 5000 lbs GTW / 500 lbs TW. The dealer said go with whatever the manual says. Sorry to say, but it looks like my 13,000 lb tow capacity truck and its 12,000 lb GTW hitch are going to be no better than a little SUV until I get a weight-distributing hitch. How about that?

This was the case for many years but Ford and GM have corrected this. I am really surprised Dodge has not????

My 06 F-350's hitch is rated for 12,000# towing and 15,000# with WD hitch. Its a 2.5" unit. The GM trucks started stepping up to the plate in 08 with better hitches also.

I was in the same place as you in 2004 when I bought a brand new F-250 Diesel. It was rated at 6,000# towing and 12,000# or maybe 10,000# WD. Well, I broke it pulling about 14,000# without a WD setup. Live and learn. I replaced it with a Reese Titan 2.5" unit rated at 12,000# towing and 16,000# WD

There are better hitches out there.

Chris

 

[tommu56]

Good rule of thumb and starting point is to put the axle at 60% the way ack from the front of the bed. This way you end up with the bed of the trailer with a 60/40 divide.

Chris

When I built my 1st trailer I measured prebuilt ones and the axles were in the same range that Chris said.

Mine is set at 57% of the bed (that means no tongue) and they tow great
I've made 4 since then and still stick to the same 57%

tom

 

[joshuabardwell]

This was the case for many years but Ford and GM have corrected this. I am really surprised Dodge has not????

My truck is an '05, so maybe they have improved things since then. I'm not motivated enough to check, but the owner's manuals can be downloaded from Dodge if you're so inclined.

There are better hitches out there.

Seems to me like the answer is to just pony up for a WD hitch and be done with.

 

[joshuabardwell]

Well, here's a treat for you.

Trailer Hitch for 2012 Ford F-250 and F-350 Super Duty 1500 lbs TW 2 Inch Hitch | etrailer.com

Class V hitch rated for 15,000 lbs GTW / 1,500 lbs TW without weight distribution!!! Add a WD system and you get a whole extra 1,000 lbs GTW. HOLY COW! It's even a 2" receiver. That's something.

Having done some more searching, it appears that there is no shortage of Class V hitches that can take up to 12,000, 15,000 and even 18,000# GTW without a WD system. And the prices for them are around $250-300, which is less than a WD system would cost. But surely it's not that simple. Surely the enhanced vehicle balance and etc... of the WD system makes up its value, right? Having never towed with a WD system, I can't say for sure. What do y'all think?

 

[jejeosborne]

Now tell me: You try to make us believe that you did testings for liability lawsuits, but here you tell average Joe that its OK to break number one rule in every vehicle manual (positive tongue load) if you "compensate in other ways" ????????
You take a grand risk of getting a lawsuit on YOURSELF, if somebody reads it, gets an accident and then says "but this zzvyb6 guy on TBN said i'd be ok !!!!"

And by the way, how can the hay trailer behind the Corvette NOT have tongue weight while the axles are at least 8 inches (half a bale width) from the center of the bed ?? And then the weight of the towbar and coupler add to it... YES the manufacturer of your trailer perfectly followed the industry rule of thumb of 10% tongue weight...

With your bragging about being a vehicle dynamics engineer you achieved the opposed, because it really exposed a lack of general knowledge....

I asked earlier for his vast knowledge and scared him off. Obviously he is still testing his answers in the lab.

 

[joshuabardwell]

I asked earlier for his vast knowledge and scared him off. Obviously he is still testing his answers in the lab.

This does beg the question, though: hypothetically speaking, what could one do to compensate for negative tongue weight? The first thing that comes to my mind is to add weight over the vehicle's rear axle, since one problem with negative tongue weight is that it unloads the vehicle's axle.

Another problem is that it places the majority of weight on the trailer behind the trailer axle, which creates a lever effect when that weight moves around. The trailer axle's contact point with the ground is the fulcrum and the trailer's coupler is the end of the lever. This allows the trailer to really pull the car around, since a small motion at the back of the trailer is magnified by the larger length of lever arm between the axle and the coupler. This seems to me to be like a Class 1 lever.

When the trailer is properly loaded, the majority of weight is between the axle (fulcrum) and the coupler, and the length of lever arm between the majority of the cargo and the coupler is reduced. This seems to me to be more like a Class 2 lever, which doesn't have the same magnifying effect on motion as a Class 1.

I wonder whether you could compensate for the "lever" effect by adding anti-sway bars or something like that.

Not that there's any substitute for properly loading your trailer, mind you... just hypothetically.

 

[Renze]

I asked earlier for his vast knowledge and scared him off. Obviously he is still testing his answers in the lab.

I've been there, done that, in a previous job i designed trailers, we were a bunch of rednecks that nonetheless got a single axle 5th wheel trailer steering system DOT approved... as for vehicle dynamics, DOT wanted real world track testing: They dont even take any lab tests and calculations, too much deviation from the real world to tell anything about the dynamics..
So this guy doesnt fool me with his attitude.