Any Excavation Professionals Feel Like Giving Advice?

[paulsharvey]

Which is a size call out.

97% passing the 3-1/2"; max 10 plasticity, min LBR100. I dont know if that meets your terminology, but thats the spec for "limerock" road base.

 

[The-AJ88]

OP here, I plan to make a decision this week on a contractor. Another contractor stopped by with his idea. He recommended geotextile fabric, #1 and #2 limestone, asphalt millings, then top with #57 limestone (to match the existing driveway). He said the asphalt millings will pack very nicely.

Will asphalt millings hold up overtime with the cold winters and hot humid summers in Ohio?

For reference - pricing I have recieved has ranged from $1,800 - $4,500 for this job

 

[LD1]

Never used asphalt millings. But if they are similar to 411's with alot of dust and fines I dont see any issue.

The reason for putting 411's on top of the base of 1-2's.....is that alot of the fines from the 411's filter down and fill the voids of the 1-2's and lock them together to stabilize the base.

IF the millings are mostly uniform in size and dont have a range of fines ranging from dust up to 1/2" or 3/4" chunks....I dont think it will lock the base in very well

 

[rScotty]

Never used asphalt millings. But if they are similar to 411's with alot of dust and fines I dont see any issue.

The reason for putting 411's on top of the base of 1-2's.....is that alot of the fines from the 411's filter down and fill the voids of the 1-2's and lock them together to stabilize the base.

IF the millings are mostly uniform in size and dont have a range of fines ranging from dust up to 1/2" or 3/4" chunks....I dont think it will lock the base in very well

Most roadbase textbooks all the way back to McAdam's original patents agree that the fines, dust, moisture content, and compaction are keys to locking the crushed rock into place.
It's researchable online.
Amazing how long it took mankind to figure out how to make a durable road surface.
Learning how to build roads that stay in place took until he early 1800s. Up until then, everything from farm carts to cannons used a wheel base measured to fit the ruts.
rScotty

 

[paulsharvey]

"OP here, I plan to make a decision this week on a contractor. Another contractor stopped by with his idea. He recommended geotextile fabric, #1 and #2 limestone, asphalt millings, then top with #57 limestone (to match the existing driveway). He said the asphalt millings will pack very nicely. "

Asphalt millings will pack nicely, and provide a good surface, resistant to water and turning movements.

"Will asphalt millings hold up overtime with the cold winters and hot humid summer. "

They will hold very well is heat, can't say anything about freeze thaw, don't have that around here.

"For reference - pricing I have recieved has ranged from $1,800 - $4,500 for this job."

Low end isn't unreasonable; I would say; roughly 6 hours at $150/hr for mini hoe or mini ex; and roller or heavy plate tamp. Between $600-900 for 20 tons of material (thats asphalt millings, hauled, locally); plus profit. The $4500; I would rather have 6" thick concrete, with WWF, at that price. Still have to excavate atleast 4" down, around here you won't find topsoil deaper then maybe 2 or 3" max; we wouldn't put gravel under concrete, but you have a different geology, do I dont know.

6" concrete, 30ft x 30 ft, is only 17 yards; or 2 truck loads; at around here I think $135/yard, maybe 2 hours to excavate and form; then pour and finish; 3 men at 8 hours. So, let's say, 2 guys, 1 mini hoe; forming, I'd say $450; let's go crazy and say $3000 for concrete; and let's say $750 to $1250 for pour and finish. Looks to be like $4500.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[paulsharvey]

As a bit of a range; there is locally a guy who would probably quote $12-16000, and happily turn you down if he was busy; and another guy who would probably do it for $2500 and you buy the materials. Lot depends on how busy contractors are in your area.

 

[ovrszd]

Most roadbase textbooks all the way back to McAdam's original patents agree that the fines, dust, moisture content, and compaction are keys to locking the crushed rock into place.
It's researchable online.
Amazing how long it took mankind to figure out how to make a durable road surface.
Learning how to build roads that stay in place took until he early 1800s. Up until then, everything from farm carts to cannons used a wheel base measured to fit the ruts.
rScotty

Ummmmm,,,,, the Romans did it.

 

[rScotty]

Ummmmm,,,,, the Romans did it.

They sure did. Roadbuilding has a fascinating history. The Romans used fitted flat blocks of stone - but didn't do any compaction. Maybe the should have used cubical blocks, but still their lighetweight system worked OK as long as they were around to maintain it. The Romans were nuts for good roads & spent a lot on them. After the Romans left, the local people tended to find other uses for those paving blocks - they make dandy castles - and so the Roman roads turned into mud tracks.

The British and French gov'ts posted a reward for a solution, and along about 1800 a Scottish civil engineer named John McAdam figured out how to make a strong weatherproof road surface using compacted crushed stone & fines. In fact, his patent application talks about using broken up paving blocks. He got the patent and was offered a knighthood. Later on the same technique was used with the addition of asphalt, and so here we are today.
The Americanized spelling is "macadam".

You can download his patent and read it if interested.

John Loudon McAdam: The Father of the Modern Road

John Loudon McAdam changed the world of road-building forever.

interestingengineering.com

rScotty

 

[Streetcar]

Never used asphalt millings. But if they are similar to 411's with alot of dust and fines I dont see any issue.

The reason for putting 411's on top of the base of 1-2's.....is that alot of the fines from the 411's filter down and fill the voids of the 1-2's and lock them together to stabilize the base.

IF the millings are mostly uniform in size and dont have a range of fines ranging from dust up to 1/2" or 3/4" chunks....I dont think it will lock the base in very well

asphalt milling would be closer to a 304 mixture with some larger chunks

 

[paulsharvey]

I know we are all trying to be helpful, but one Huge problem with internet research and opinions is Paralysis by Analysis. Theory is good, but most gravel/rock/stabalized drives work pretty well, even with little over thinking. In all honesty, and even too ghetto for me (which says a lot), if you lay an old carpet on top of relatively stable sand, it works...

Good luck with your drive, hope you get what you want, and I think you will be pleased.

 

[Fixastuff]

Around here you can get "fine milled" recycled asphalt and it makes an awesome driveway.

 

[ovrszd]

They sure did. Roadbuilding has a fascinating history. The Romans used fitted flat blocks of stone - but didn't do any compaction. Maybe the should have used cubical blocks, but still their lighetweight system worked OK as long as they were around to maintain it. The Romans were nuts for good roads & spent a lot on them. After the Romans left, the local people tended to find other uses for those paving blocks - they make dandy castles - and so the Roman roads turned into mud tracks.

The British and French gov'ts posted a reward for a solution, and along about 1800 a Scottish civil engineer named John McAdam figured out how to make a strong weatherproof road surface using compacted crushed stone & fines. In fact, his patent application talks about using broken up paving blocks. He got the patent and was offered a knighthood. Later on the same technique was used with the addition of asphalt, and so here we are today.
The Americanized spelling is "macadam".

You can download his patent and read it if interested.

John Loudon McAdam: The Father of the Modern Road

John Loudon McAdam changed the world of road-building forever.

interestingengineering.com

rScotty

Not sure where you live. Come to rural Missouri and I'll show you examples of what you described that the Romans did.

Constant maintenance keeps up a road, not a patent.

 

[paulsharvey]

So, on the road building; State built and is building a bunch of Multiuse trails/bike trails, mostly in old rail beds. Stabalized subgrade, 8" base, 1.5" asphalt; every bit equal to the Vast majority of commercial parking lots or county roads. The trails crack and heave more then you would expect after just 3 or 5 years, and it's because the lack of vehicle traffic. Go down an old abandoned housing development, and the pavement is crap from lack of traffic. Mother nature is a cruel, heartless batch, and she works 24/7/365 to destroy anything built. Traffic prevents vegetation growing in; trees are trimmed for vertical clearance, so less water sits on the roads, ect.

The Roman's build great stuff, but they could spend huge amounts of $$$ and tens of thousands of slave laborers on vanity projects. Also, their 'wonders' were built over 400 years. If we wanted to build 3,000 miles of nearly invincible roadway, we could, but you wouldn't want to see the budget. Modern roads are designed to be resurfaced roughly every 12-20 years. The major critical components have a 50-year design life. Sure, we have the technology to use stainless steel for all our water lines; but it would cost 5x the amount, and although it would last far longer, you would find it still would need replaced as what a city thought it needed 100 years ago, doesn't fit its current need.

For practical; let's say for $25,000 you can have the ultimate driveway; lasting your life time, with min maintenance; or for $10,000 you can gave one that needs $2,000 of work every 5 years; unless you plan to live to be 100; the choice is clear. Especially when the average person only keeps the same home for 7 years. The upgrade May increase the resale value, but probably not by $15k over the cheaper one.

That's where everyone needs to think of their own situation; if your building your dream home at 35, and plan to die there; sure spend the money. If you know you might not, good enough is just that; good enough.

 

[ning]

Let's not forget that the heaviest thing expected to be going over a Roman roadway was an elephant, and that very rarely. Otherwise, wagons full of grain were probably the expected limit.

 

[ovrszd]

Let's not forget that the heaviest thing expected to be going over a Roman roadway was an elephant, and that very rarely. Otherwise, wagons full of grain were probably the expected limit.

Yep. And let's not forget they didn't have a Dozer, Grader, Scraper and Sheeps Foot Roller.

 

[Egon]

Not related but interesting for some!

Let’s not overlook the vast road network in Mexico and South America!

Or the Malta cart tracks.

 

[paulsharvey]

So, I think maybe we are missing something about the Roman roads, and buildings. They screwed up. Why? They built something that lasted 2000 years. They wasted man power, resources, ect for vanity; when a function system that would last for their need would have better served them. Even in Eastern Rome, which lasted until almost Columbus, most of their infrastructure wasn't really used past 900 AD.

Also, keep mind, we see the 1-2% that did survive; not the 98-99% that failed.

There is a reason we don't build houses that last forever. We certainly are able to build cast in place, 12" thick reinforced concrete houses; with Stainless steel roofs. We don't, because we don't think on a 3+ generation time line. When we die, maybe 1 generation will sue what you left behind, but thats even the minority. Most kids are gonna auction of the folks place yo the highest bidder. Farms maybe the exception, but even still; I would guess a significant % either sell; land lease it out.

Damn; I'm getting philosophical on the crapper...

 

[ovrszd]

So, I think maybe we are missing something about the Roman roads, and buildings. They screwed up. Why? They built something that lasted 2000 years. They wasted man power, resources, ect for vanity; when a function system that would last for their need would have better served them. Even in Eastern Rome, which lasted until almost Columbus, most of their infrastructure wasn't really used past 900 AD.

Also, keep mind, we see the 1-2% that did survive; not the 98-99% that failed.

There is a reason we don't build houses that last forever. We certainly are able to build cast in place, 12" thick reinforced concrete houses; with Stainless steel roofs. We don't, because we don't think on a 3+ generation time line. When we die, maybe 1 generation will sue what you left behind, but thats even the minority. Most kids are gonna auction of the folks place yo the highest bidder. Farms maybe the exception, but even still; I would guess a significant % either sell; land lease it out.

Damn; I'm getting philosophical on the crapper...

Very well stated.

That's why I added the Romans to this discussion when it was suggested that mankind only learned how to successfully build a road in the last couple hundred years.

We, all of us, cannot imagine building something today that will most likely be needed in 2000 years, let alone that would last that long.

 

[yanmars]

Perhaps the Roman's built roads that would last for 2000 years is because they expected to be in power that long?

 

[japody]

I am in the process of getting a 48' x 36' tractor shed. Had a local company come out and prep the site yesterday. Took off top soil, built up and leveled the clay pad, and rolled it. Tomorrow, he will be topping it with 4" of crusher run and rolling that. Pics of progress so far: