any downside to hst?

[JimR]

MossRoad makes a good point about tractor owners. I used to have a Ford 8N. I had it for many years. I would never ever ever consider going back to a geared machine after buying my Cub with HST. When I think of all the times I had to ice my left knee from using the clutch on the 8N for hours on end. Just thinking about it makes me relive those days of agony.

 

[Soundguy]

You do bring up a good point. I mow flat open land. Very few trees to dodge.. and the ones there are grouped.. so I only have to dodge the stand... and it's big enought to make a pass around and then just cut like normal.

As for the heavy brush and multi flora and 1.5" stuff.. Just need more hp and a tough mower.. then you can keep going the same speed (grin).

Once i enter my pasture, i engage the pto,set rpm, let the clutch out and go. My feet don't see the clutch or brake again till the pasture is done a couple hours later., baring of course, something running in front of the tractor.. or an unexpected piece of debri someone has donated to my pasture.

Soundguy

Here's something I've noticed over the years here at TBN...
When someone mentions brush hogging and gear tractors in the same breath, they usually mean field mowing, as they talk about constant speed and cruise control.... "set it in the correct gear and go." When I talk about brush hogging, I'm going through thick, nasty brush, not tall grass. Multiflora roses, saplings, 1.5" trees, uneven ground, etc... it is constant speed and direction changes. I couldn't pick a gear for more than a few feet and have to stop and change speeds. Plus, I need full power to the brush hog, so I need the engine RPMs up at max all the time anyway. I would like to see someone with a gear tractor brush hog the places I do and then do it again with an HST tractor. Do that for a couple hours and see which unit did more work, AND how tired the operator is after two hours on each tranny type. On the other hand, brush hogging grass in a field, if you have cruise control, would probably be just as easy with and HST.

 

[Soundguy]

MossRoad makes a good point about tractor owners. I used to have a Ford 8N. I had it for many years. I would never ever ever consider going back to a geared machine after buying my Cub with HST. When I think of all the times I had to ice my left knee from using the clutch on the 8N for hours on end. Just thinking about it makes me relive those days of agony.

I look forward to the clutch on my 8n.. it's the easiest one I've got.

The clutch on my 660 is 2 stage, and the pedal stands almost as tall as your knee ( by design.. go figure.. )... Not hard to press.. but tall.

Now my ford 5000 and NH 7610s.. they will make you a tad tired holding the clutch down.. Good thing they have independent pto...


Soundguy

 

[Doc_Bob]

I look forward to the clutch on my 8n.. it's the easiest one I've got.

The clutch on my 660 is 2 stage, and the pedal stands almost as tall as your knee ( by design.. go figure.. )... Not hard to press.. but tall.

Now my ford 5000 and NH 7610s.. they will make you a tad tired holding the clutch down.. Good thing they have independent pto...


Soundguy

My TN70A Power shuttle takes the work out of clutching forward/reverse. No pain at all. Very easy.
Bob

 

[PineRidge]

One other thing I've noticed here on TBN... most folks that do similar tasks to what I do that now have HST and formerly had GEAR would not go back to GEAR if given the choice. I think that says a lot given the vast amount of hours of experience all those users have, when combined.

I hear ya! That's me Moss.

 

[AutoUnionTypeC]

Originally Posted by MossRoad
Here's something I've noticed over the years here at TBN...
When someone mentions brush hogging and gear *******s in the same breath, they usually mean field mowing, as they talk about constant speed and cruise control.... "set it in the correct gear and go." When I talk about brush hogging, I'm going through thick, nasty brush, not tall grass. Multiflora roses, saplings, 1.5" trees, uneven ground, etc... it is constant speed and direction changes. I couldn't pick a gear for more than a few feet and have to stop and change speeds. Plus, I need full power to the brush hog, so I need the engine RPMs up at max all the time anyway. I would like to see someone with a gear ******* brush hog the places I do and then do it again with an HST *******. Do that for a couple hours and see which unit did more work, AND how tired the operator is after two hours on each tranny type. On the other hand, brush hogging grass in a field, if you have cruise control, would probably be just as easy with and HST.

Moss,
You make some excellent points in favor of a hydro transmission. That's the kind of stuff a prospective buyer needs to hear. As you know hydro is best for your situation I feel gear is best for my own. Obviously a case can be made for both given the particular circumstances. Yours is the best case for hydro I heard/read yet, nevertheless I still feel hydro is a bit oversold in general. In most cases I think it’s probably a neat but unnecessary tool that comes with a price that is very little discussed or even understood in many cases.

Regards, Jamie

 

[Dargo]

I hear ya! That's me Moss.

Yup, me too. At first I simply had no desire for that "new" hydro thing. I mean, my gosh, I was getting along just fine with my gear tractors. When I heard that they actually cost more, well, that closed the deal; I stayed gear...for a while. Then I actually drove one and used one. Big mistake.

It's sort of like my grandparents saying that they got along just fine before the advent of refrigerators and air conditioning in a house or even indoor plumbing. However, after having those things, even though they did indeed cost a bit more, it made it a non-issue which was the way to go. I've made a 180 turn on my opinion of hydro tractors. The ONLY advantage I see at all to a gear tractor is that they would get a bit better fuel economy. But, if that small amount of extra money you'd spend on diesel fuel would break you, you have other more serious issues you need to address.

 

[JerryG]

Manual transmissions have changed a lot in the last 20 years. There are manuals that can and are as easy to drive as any Hydro. With the introduction of Shuttle, PowerShuttle, PowerShift, DynaQPS and CVT transmissions, no longer are you locked in to a crash box version of a manual transmission, as it would seem from this thread. Some of these transmissions don’t need to be clutched to be able to shift, start and stop or even change directions. They cost less than a hydro, suck less power and have fewer soft parts to eventually need to be replaced. They are also much easier to repair should the need be.

 

[john_bud]

Manual transmissions have changed a lot in the last 20 years. There are manuals that can and are as easy to drive as any Hydro. With the introduction of Shuttle, PowerShuttle, PowerShift, DynaQPS and CVT transmissions, no longer are you locked in to a crash box version of a manual transmission, as it would seem from this thread. Some of these transmissions don’t need to be clutched to be able to shift, start and stop or even change directions. They cost less than a hydro, suck less power and have fewer soft parts to eventually need to be replaced. They are also much easier to repair should the need be.

Jerry,

I have to respectfully disagree with you on this point, but it may be out of my ignorance. My understanding is that the repair costs are about the same across the board. Labor to split is about the same and labor to repair is about the same. Now, that is just my understanding (which has been proven wrong before!). You sound knowledgable, do you have book time and repair parts costs to support your statement? I would be curious to see how they very from my understanding.

From looking at the kubota repair manual for the GST, it is pretty much the same "guts" as an automatic transmission, just with lots more ratios. But it has, IMHO, much more complexity than the HST.

Oddly enough, when I bought the HST the GST was priced $150 higher than the GST.

Who would have thought that such good discusion would come from a simple question? "any downside to hst?"

jb

 

[JerryG]

John,
I don't have ready access to a price book any more, but from talking to friends that are still in the business the cost for rough tear down is about the same across the board for similar size and make of tractors. Where the costs start adding up different is the labor for internal repairs as well as for the parts. One reason that the parts are more costly is because assemblies have to be changed at a higher rate when a problem occurs compared to the ability to change single defective parts in the vast majority of manual variations. The GST seems to be a very dependable hybrid transmission. It does have a higher internal labor costs than most other types of manual transmissions seemingly because of the variation.

To all.
I would like to say that I have absolutely no problem with anyone that prefers to own and operate a hydro. There are many different transmissions available for several reasons. One of them is owner preference. A person has to be comfortable with what they operate. If the transmission makes them uncomfortable for any reason, then they have the wrong transmission. It doesn’t matter if it is manual or hydro or somewhere in between. Uncomfortable is uncomfortable. Just as there is no one ideal model for everyone there is no one ideal transmission for everyone. The one and only reason that I am posting to this thread is because this thread could lead a prospective buyer to believe that the modern manual transmission tractor is the same as it was in the 1950s and before. Given the advancements in manual transmissions in the last twenty years, there are hardly any similarities in the more advanced models, when compared to the original crash box transmissions. The more advanced ones are very easy to operate to the point of being rivals to the best hydros in the market. Chose whichever one you are comfortable with but don’t think that modern manual transmissions are from the rock age.

 

[Soundguy]

Jerry,

I have to respectfully disagree with you on this point, but it may be out of my ignorance. My understanding is that the repair costs are about the same across the board. Labor to split is about the same and labor to repair is about the same. Now, that is just my understanding (which has been proven wrong before!). jb

I think I have to agree with Jerry.

Looking at average tranny repairs on gear units vs hydro units. In many cases we are talking about a 350$ clutch job on the gear unit.

Some of the hydro trannies on a piece of equipment are a single integral assembly.. that whole hunk o' iron has to be changed out to repair in some cases.

In some of our older mid 80's large tractors used to run tillers.. the gear are BY FAR easier to work on... You can drop a tranny, reseal, add bearings and what not in a day.. for a few hundred dollars of soft parts and bearings, and a couple hundred bucks in shop labor... vs sending a hydro unit out to the specialist shop and then praying the repair doesn't cost 25% of what you paid for the machine... plus your shop labor that tore it down and reinstalled it.

Soundguy

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Chris & Jerry, I think both of you are correct that a hydro is probably more expensive to repair than a gear. However, I think it is probably more common to repair a gear than a hydro! That is contrary to what most people believe, but a typical home user (not a farmer) but a small land owner, is probably far more likely to burn out a clutch or grind the teeth off of some gears, than he is likely to destroy a HST transmission.

Bear in mind that people who are "regular or typical" posters here on TBN are not regular and typical tractor owners. We are folks who love to talk about tractors, who love to play with tractor and who have tractors as a hobby. A typical guy with 5, 10 or 15 acres does not visit TBN, does not collect tractors, and doesn't usually have a clue about the differences between models or brands. That guy is the guy who is typical. That guy is the guy who's tractor is going to have the clutch repaired far more often than guys like JerryG or Soundguy.

JMO

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Bear in mind that people who are "regular or typical" posters here on TBN are not regular and typical tractor owners. We are folks who love to talk about tractors, who love to play with tractor and who have tractors as a hobby. A typical guy with 5, 10 or 15 acres does not visit TBN, does not collect tractors, and doesn't usually have a clue about the differences between models or brands. That guy is the guy who is typical. That guy is the guy who's tractor is going to have the clutch repaired far more often than guys like JerryG or Soundguy.

JMO

From all I've seen, TBN attracts a broad slice of the "typical tractor owner" crowd. That being said, more often than not, that "typical" owner, who happens to be using a newer hydro tractor is more likely to take it to a dealer for repairs than those who own older (where gear drive is far more common) tractors. I'm one of those "stick-in-the-muds" who love my old stuff. The tractors I'm enthused with are generally late 50's through early 80's. Not a lot of hydros on the market back then. And the ones that were out there were either lawn and garden rigs or those somewhat rare IH Hydros. In this modern era, most tractors are very high tech compared to my favorites. That means factory trained dealer mechanics get the lions share of the repairs, transmission or otherwise. That sends the typical repair bill through the roof. There's still a number of smalltime repair shops out there that'll tackle most any gear drive repairs, giving us a cheaper alternative. All things being equal, if you were to send a gear drive tractor to a dealership for major repairs, I'm not so certain they'd come out much cheaper.

 

[JerryG]

Chris & Jerry, I think both of you are correct that a hydro is probably more expensive to repair than a gear. However, I think it is probably more common to repair a gear than a hydro! That is contrary to what most people believe, but a typical home user (not a farmer) but a small land owner, is probably far more likely to burn out a clutch or grind the teeth off of some gears, than he is likely to destroy a HST transmission.JMO

Bob,
Four of the five transmissions that I named above don't have dry clutches to wear out. Three of the five don't have gears that can be ground. Like I said there are several advanced manual transmissions out there that are very much comparable to hydros.

 

[Soundguy]

Bob,
Four of the five transmissions that I named above don't have dry clutches to wear out. Three of the five don't have gears that can be ground. Like I said there are several advanced manual transmissions out there that are very much comparable to hydros.

I think an HST may be an easier trans for a newbie to use.. and thus may last longer during the learning hours.

I've seen a new operator burn out a new clutch in 2 hours!

Still.. I prefer gear...

Soundguy

 

[JerryG]

I think an HST may be an easier trans for a newbie to use.. and thus may last longer during the learning hours.

I've seen a new operator burn out a new clutch in 2 hours!

Still.. I prefer gear...

Soundguy

That's why I stated that "Four of the five transmissions that I named above don't have dry clutches to wear out." These wet clutches last many, many times longer than a dry clutch. A dry clutch could very well be burned out by someone that knew absolutely nothing about what they were doing in that short of time. It is amazing to me how any piece of equipment can last a week with some users. Even the small homeowners equipment like sold at Home Depot and Lowes are brought back because they get torn up in the first few days. The old story of destroying an anvil with a rubber hammer is relived quite often.

 

[Soundguy]

That reminds me of a truck driver we hired once. First day. he showed up at 7am, filled out paperwork... got hired on the spot.. at 7:15 he got in the dump truck to drive it down to the shop to pick up one of the other drivers so they could run the first day together.., backed up 10' and hit a power pole.. knocked it over.. broke the wire which landed on the truck. Had to wat 2 hrs till power company showed up and removed wire. Then the driver quits!!!

All in a days work i guess.

Speaking of wet clutches and lifespan.. how about them wet brakes.... Harder to change.. but what a decent idea...

Soundguy

 

[slowrev]

Can't pull start a hydro can you ?
My friends 5000 ford battery went out last weekend and if we could not have pull started the tractor the hay would not have been rolled up before the rain came.
Ben

 

[JerryG]

Speaking of wet clutches and lifespan.. how about them wet brakes.... Harder to change.. but what a decent idea...Soundguy

Yes, I love wet brakes. They stop much much better, but I agree on them being a lot harder to change. I don't like to change them at all, especially the ones that are next to the transmission case. Thank goodness, they last a very long time.

 

[Doc_Bob]

Chose whichever one you are comfortable with but don’t think that modern manual transmissions are from the rock age.

Mega dittos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bob