Alternative "sub-compact" tractor solutions

[MultiMow]

This thread is for those who are open to more flexible solutions in the sub-compact tractor category... such as:

-"Alpine tractors" (Antonio Cararro, John Deere A20, Pesquali, etc.)

-Rear steer / municipal tractors (Kubota F-series, etc.)

-Small articulated tractors (Ventrac/Steiner)

-reversible station tractors (New Holland / Ford "Versatile" series)

-any other designs aside from "conventional" tractors

I think the majority of sub-compact tractor customers would find their needs better served in other design platforms. The conventional "little front/big rear/front engine/rear driver/rear implement" configuration is great for row cropping... but let's face it, nobody is row cropping with a sub-compact. As a matter of fact, most sub-compact applications are better suited to front-mount implements (mowing, snow removal, etc.).

What's your thoughts?

 

[Milo]

I'm not familiar with most you listed but I have looked into Ventrac (not enough ground clearance) and F-series (seems like a great mower platform but expensive for what it is and not versatile enough for my needs).

 

[bcp]

Not readily available, little support, more expensive.

Should have 4-wheel steer and crab steer. What do you do in an articulated machine when you are next to something and need to turn away? Same problem with conventional tractor with rear implement.

Should have both front and rear 3pt hitch. And PTO both ways, too.

Cost should not be the same or more than a 2-step larger conventional tractor.

Bruce

 

[LD1]

Pretty much what BCP said. Not widely available enough yet, and very expensive machines and attachments.

3PH attachments for the rear of tractors have been around for several decades. Lots of them out there, given plenty of used ones, and plenty of demand, keeps the prices down even on new ones.

My take on those "alternative" type machines is they are made to be real good a something specific. Where as a conventional tractor, while not the best at everything, covers a broader range of what alot of folks do.

I brushhog with a 8' mower, sometimes up to 30 acres in a single day, I pull a 3-bottom plow, 3PH disc, and PTO tiller for garden work. (large garden mind you). I tow a 5'x9' wood hauling trailer loaded with ~1-cord at a time. Have a grapple that for lifting logs up to ~3000# and moving brush. Skid some rather large trees/tops. Pallet forks that can lift ~3000#+ and up to ~9'-10' high. Dirt working with the FEL. Rear post hole digger. Rear blade to do snow plowing, ditch ways, general dirt and driveway work. Travel ~17 MPH down the road and through the fields to wherever the above chores take me. Pull a two row sweet corn planter and 2-row cultivator. USe the landscape rake for a whole assortment of tasks. Run a sickle bar mower over the edge of a ditch or pond bank. Etc Etc Etc. All with a 50 hp machine under $30k.

What one of the "alternative" machines can do ALL of that at least as well as a tractor, and dont cost twice as much?

Sure, certain types of those machines do certain things better. And if ones needs arent as diverse as mine.....then by all means get the best piece of equipment for what YOUR needs are. For me, a tractor is the best fit. Both functionally and economically.

 

[Xfaxman]

I don't know the cost, but have always liked this design: Aebi Terratrac | ASH Aebi Schmidt Holding AG

 

[MossRoad]

This thread is for those who are open to more flexible solutions in the sub-compact tractor category... such as:

-"Alpine tractors" (Antonio Cararro, John Deere A20, Pesquali, etc.)

-Rear steer / municipal tractors (Kubota F-series, etc.)

-Small articulated tractors (Ventrac/Steiner)

-reversible station tractors (New Holland / Ford "Versatile" series)

-any other designs aside from "conventional" tractors

I think the majority of sub-compact tractor customers would find their needs better served in other design platforms. The conventional "little front/big rear/front engine/rear driver/rear implement" configuration is great for row cropping... but let's face it, nobody is row cropping with a sub-compact. As a matter of fact, most sub-compact applications are better suited to front-mount implements (mowing, snow removal, etc.).

What's your thoughts?

Take a drive over to Tazewell and get a tour of the Power Trac line of machines...

 

[MossRoad]

As far as expense... when I was tractor shopping back in 2001, the Power Trac was WAY less expensive for a comparable conventional type of tractor.

 

[MossRoad]

Here's a link to a thread started back in 2001. It ended up being one of the main influences in me switching from a conventional tractor to an articulated machine with all attachments up front.

Its a good read and gets you thinking.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/related-topics/5108-compact-tractors-designed-all-wrong.html

What anyone reading it should glean from the discussion is that what's most important when choosing a machine like a tractor, is you have to first figure out what tasks you are going to want to tackle and then finding machines that will handle those tasks, and stay within your budget.

For us, our main tractor jobs are, in order of most time spent:
Mowing the lawn and clearing leaves at our home.
Gathering firewood at our remote property.
Brush cutting trails at our remote property.
Snow removal at our home.
Then throw in the occasional landscaping projects, church and little league volunteering, helping friends and family, etc...

We had NO need for a pulling machine. We don't pull stumps or plow dirt. So why have all the attachments behind you where you can't see them? :laughing:

 

[roadhunter]

I've always thought these were cool alternatives to a tractor. Even has a 3 point on back and SSQA on front.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

Given the products on the market, what drives the sub-compact boom is their quality, utility and relative affordability. We also sell F-series, Steiner, etc... but would sell BX's 20-1. There are other great options out there, but they just don't check all the boxes.

 

[LD1]

There are other great options out there, but they just don't check all the boxes.

Guess thats a pretty simple way to sum up what it took me several paragraphs to say:thumbsup:

 

[MultiMow]

I don't know the cost, but have always liked this design: Aebi Terratrac | ASH Aebi Schmidt Holding AG

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View attachment 486795

Agreed.

Aebi makes some amazing units, with regard to hillside operation... but they are BEYOND expensive. (minimum power unit alone is roughly $75k)

The reason I started this thread, is to gauge what people think of alternative units... both with AND without experience.

I get the biggest issues with market acceptance (serviceability, dealer presence, price point, attachments, etc.).

I do like the Power Trac series... but my biggest issues are weight and price.

I'm working on fabricating my own traction unit... but I really want to see what other people's issues are with these machines. I hope to patent/license/sell the machine when finished, so I want it to be a viable/marketable solution.

I have the price point down to roughly $10-$15k in production. My spec'd plans right now will cost me about $10k for the prototype.

I won't go into much detail... but three advantages of my design are an adjustable track width, reversible operator's station, and great hillside stability.

 

[MultiMow]

Given the products on the market, what drives the sub-compact boom is their quality, utility and relative affordability. We also sell F-series, Steiner, etc... but would sell BX's 20-1. There are other great options out there, but they just don't check all the boxes.

BX?

Not familiar.

 

[LD1]

BX?

Not familiar.

Probably the most popular kubotas sold.

 

[MultiMow]

Probably the most popular kubotas sold.

Ah

I thought he was referencing a brand name.

I've operated BXs... just more of the same antiquated conventional tractor design.... not optimized for typical compact applications.

 

[CADplans]

I converted my loader arms, bucket and attachments to a standard skid steer quick attach by using a SSQA takeoff.
I can quickly change front attachments,,,

So, why do I mow with a rear attachment?
Why do I re-grade my driveway with a rear attachment?

DUST!!

I have driven tractors for multiple decades.
I remember when we switched from a front mounted soybean row cultivator to rear mounted 3 point hitch cultivator.

The change in the amount of dust the operator had to eat was unbelievable.
We were willing to go faster, kicking up dust with a rear attachment was no concern.
The front cultivator was easy to see, and easy to keep on the row, but, we drove slow to keep the dust down.

I know the OP is not concerned with row crop machines, but, operators TODAY,, of any machine,,, are concerned with health issues.
Read the threads about CUTS and mowers.
Those that have used both mid and rear finish mowers lean towards rear.
There are a large number of posts about the problems with the mid mowers throwing grass clippings up into the tractor.
That does not happen with a RFM.

I have both a RFM,, and a mid mount mower on similar sized tractors.
I prefer to operate the RFM.
Less dust, less pollen, and less noise,,, I am not sitting right over the mower with the RFM.

I think, as time goes on, you will see more and more users going towards rear attachments.
Either that, or company's will be selling a LOT of dust masks!!

The RFM is now a highly developed, low cost, attachment ,,, well suited for the 3 point hitch.
Development of a replacement may take 20-30 years to just catch up to the existing RFM.

I mention the mower,,, because, probably 90% of the hours put on these machines is mowing.

 

[roadhunter]

Ah

I thought he was referencing a brand name.

I've operated BXs... just more of the same antiquated conventional tractor design.... not optimized for typical compact applications.

People on here are really sensitive about thier tractors. But don't sweat it. Tractors are cheap compared to the alternatives like skid steers or ,gasp, telehandlers.. That is why they are so popular. Tractors are ok at doing many things but they are not really great at doing anything but pulling implements. Loader work is a perfect example as tractors work but lack visibility compared to something like a skid steer. Anything with 4 wheel steering will blow a tractor away as far as maneuverability as will a skid steer. Mowing with a tractor works but for most homeowner applications a dedicated mower is much faster. Running an auger a skid steer or telehandler will run circles around a tractor as well as give you reverse on the auger which a PTO drive won't do. Nor does the tractor's 3 point have down pressure which is a must in tough soil. Low flow tractor hydraulics won't drive most skid steer attachments or compact skid steer attachments either. They also typically lack protection for things like the engine, undercarriage, and operator. Quality on things like hydraulic valves and hoses is what you would expect for something made in Korea, China, or Japan. I've owned several smaller tractors and I doubt I would buy another one as I like the features in other equipment better. The tractor I ahve now has many of the features (better hydraulics, 3 point downforce, better loader capacity, 4 wheel steer, etc) that I was after but couldn't' find in a "some young son" foreign job.

 

[LD1]

Messicks summed it up well. What machine checks more boxes of what it "can" do than a tractor, related to what most home owners or hobby farmers do?

Sure, I could buy a SS or telehandler, for twice what my tractor cost. And excel at dirt work or post holes. But how am I gonna tow my wood trailers, or mow a 20 acre pasture?

 

[MultiMow]

I converted my loader arms, bucket and attachments to a standard skid steer quick attach by using a SSQA takeoff.
I can quickly change front attachments,,,

So, why do I mow with a rear attachment?
Why do I re-grade my driveway with a rear attachment?

DUST!!

I have driven tractors for multiple decades.
I remember when we switched from a front mounted soybean row cultivator to rear mounted 3 point hitch cultivator.

The change in the amount of dust the operator had to eat was unbelievable.
We were willing to go faster, kicking up dust with a rear attachment was no concern.
The front cultivator was easy to see, and easy to keep on the row, but, we drove slow to keep the dust down.

I know the OP is not concerned with row crop machines, but, operators TODAY,, of any machine,,, are concerned with health issues.
Read the threads about CUTS and mowers.
Those that have used both mid and rear finish mowers lean towards rear.
There are a large number of posts about the problems with the mid mowers throwing grass clippings up into the tractor.
That does not happen with a RFM.

I have both a RFM,, and a mid mount mower on similar sized tractors.
I prefer to operate the RFM.
Less dust, less pollen, and less noise,,, I am not sitting right over the mower with the RFM.

I think, as time goes on, you will see more and more users going towards rear attachments.
Either that, or company's will be selling a LOT of dust masks!!

The RFM is now a highly developed, low cost, attachment ,,, well suited for the 3 point hitch.
Development of a replacement may take 20-30 years to just catch up to the existing RFM.

I mention the mower,,, because, probably 90% of the hours put on these machines is mowing.

Ever tried trim, undercut, creek/pondside mowing with a rear mount and a bad neck/back?

I agree, there are many applications that are better suited to rear mount. I'm not attempting to deny that. I also know there are many benefits to front mount. What I'm saying is, the majority of us who own a compact, would see much benefit from a machine that is capable of both.

Your citation is warranted, as even most compact owners do some measure of ground engaging work (tilling, cultivating, light grade work, etc.).

That's the reason for this discussion. I want to hear the pros/cons of various alternative experience, AND why some may/may-not have changed to alternative designs.

 

[MossRoad]

Agreed.

Aebi makes some amazing units, with regard to hillside operation... but they are BEYOND expensive. (minimum power unit alone is roughly $75k)

The reason I started this thread, is to gauge what people think of alternative units... both with AND without experience.

I get the biggest issues with market acceptance (serviceability, dealer presence, price point, attachments, etc.).

I do like the Power Trac series... but my biggest issues are weight and price.

I'm working on fabricating my own traction unit... but I really want to see what other people's issues are with these machines. I hope to patent/license/sell the machine when finished, so I want it to be a viable/marketable solution.

I have the price point down to roughly $10-$15k in production. My spec'd plans right now will cost me about $10k for the prototype.

I won't go into much detail... but three advantages of my design are an adjustable track width, reversible operator's station, and great hillside stability.

You ever hear of the GOOD, FAST, CHEAP triangle?

You can only pick two.

From everything you describe you want it to do, you may be able to make it yourself for that price with scavenged parts, but only if you don't put a value on your time.