All Things Livestock...

[MikeD74T]

Water tank...My partner suggested digging a smaller diameter hole underneath it fairly deep. One small enough that it won't slip down into the thing, but deep enough to circulate some warmer air from below to help keep it from freezing up. Does that sound reasonable? Any thoughts there?

A few year ago I dug a hole for a neighboring dairy farmer and we put 12' of 18" culvert vertically under a water trough. It went 3 winters without freezing then they sold out in a dairy reduction program. His water pipe came into the side of the culvert & up to a float. The trough was about 2'x3'x 8" deep, probably better described as an oversized waterbowl. We get multiple days of 0-10F. The farmers son was a trucker & had seen something like in Oklahoma. MikeD74T

 

[Spiveyman]

Around my neck of the woods, a 12' deep 18" wide hole is called a well. I doubt I could dig 12' down and not hit water. Actually, I doubt I could dig 12' down period, but that's another story. When I get my back hoe I'm going to have to dig a 10' hole just because I can. Of course judging from the time it took to get the tooth bar in I figure it will be 2013 before I get the back hoe.

Anyway, cool! Glad to hear that there is some credence to doing it that way. Hopefully I'll be puting in a more permanent water tank soon (waiting on money). For now the cattle seem happy. At least there is a source of water.

 

[texasjohn]

Amazing story about how neighbor wanted payment for putting cow into trailer not attached to pickup, then breaking leg.

Interesting comment re electricity and horns... all I can say is that make sure that you have a fence charger qualified for 100 miles... 200 is better... they are at TSC... Not sure what you will do since horns can rip out barb wire...

Hmm... buffalo.... I gotta be honest with you... I gotta recommend you leave them alone.. I have no personal experience, only personal stories from people over the years. My belief is that they are COMPLETELY different animals from regular cattle. They can become vicious in an instant, will test EVERY fence, enclosure, whatever, and are strong, strong, strong. They are simply wired differently from regular cows. I doubt, strongly, that you can handle them with your current equipment and frankly fear for your safety. Somebody who has personal experience with BOTH animals may be able to refute my beliefs, but I believe they are realistic.

 

[Spiveyman]

I hear you on the AI. It sure seems like a lot less work to just have a good bull out there and let him do his job. However at this point we're not trying to have a concentrated calving peroid. Actually quite the opposite. Our cows are a bit spread out right now and we are running the bull with them constantly. Since we are covering the full gamut of the process - conceptoin to consumption - and people eat beef all year, we don't mind having cattle spread out in ages and weights. This also maximizes our production, the cattle should be covered as soon as they are open again, rather than waiting a couple months to ensure a certain calving season. We may have to change that later on as we grow, but for now that's where we are.

I had fun this weekend. One of the cattle got in the watering tank, broke the heater off, so I had a 4" hole in the bottom of the tank. It was paritally burried so it didn't drain completely, but leaked enough to make a marsh around the tank. I had to get in there with my FEL and dig that thing out. Made the biggest mess I've ever made and loved every minut of it. At this point anything I get to use my tractor for is still fun for me. We wound up taking out a section of fence (so I could get my tractor in a smaller pen) and moved the tank up next to the barn. This should work out much better for me anyway. Now the tank is right by the barn, the cord for the heater will be dry, and we put a couple of feed bunks next to the water. Now I can drop grain in the bunks from inside the barn and start getting the cattle up by the barn for phase 2 - which will be feeding them in the barn and patterning them for working purposes. It's slow going right now and I can't get cost sharing until the 1st of the year, but we'll plan now and break dirt after Jan 1.

I'm also getting real good at running barbed wire. I re-inforced a big section of fence Sat as well. They hadn't challenged it yet, but figured I'd give them another reason not to.

 

[texasjohn]

You understand AI, good, so no illusions.

Feed bunk immediately adjacent to water will result in feed being dropped into the water when cows lift their heads up and feed dribbles out.. fouling the water... perhaps there is some separation between the two..

I unroll barb wire, when necessary, by putting a pipe in the 3ph arms and putting the spool on the pipe then driving along the fence line.

Glad you are having fun... yes, it's amazing that cattle will somehow get into the water trough on occasion and bust things... Where I grew up there was a concrete trough running between two pens and the float was sheltered by a very stout wide wood cover centered in the trough where the fence was.

 

[Spiveyman]

Feed bunk immediately adjacent to water will result in feed being dropped into the water when cows lift their heads up and feed dribbles out.. fouling the water... perhaps there is some separation between the two..

Wow. I'm definitely getting my money's worth out of this forum! Thanks. Never thought about that. So, I'll be moving the feed bunkers now... How much separation are we talking about? 5', 10', more?

I unroll barb wire, when necessary, by putting a pipe in the 3ph arms and putting the spool on the pipe then driving along the fence line.

Another good idea. I bought one of those hand held deals that lets it spool out, but it would be nice to just drive. Of course there were several spots where we crossed a creek or there were trees in the inside of the fence, but it's probably still easier to just take the spool off, deal with whatever is there, and put it back on the tractor.

Glad you are having fun... yes, it's amazing that cattle will somehow get into the water trough on occasion and bust things... Where I grew up there was a concrete trough running between two pens and the float was sheltered by a very stout wide wood cover centered in the trough where the fence was.

Mischevious little suckers. If they'd been out there when the house got broken in to I might have suspected them.

 

[texasjohn]

Just enough separation such that they don't lift their head and get pushed out of the way and then stand over the water and continue chewing and dropping expensive feed in the water. Of course, best solution is to have sufficient bunk space such that every animal can stand without competition and eat all they want to with only minimal head lifting... to avoid feed loss of any kind.

Sounds like you need a "BEWARE, LONGHORN WATCH BULL" sign

Hadn't heard the house got broken into... terrible aggrivation... happened to us... barn broken into and tools stolen... before we started living on our place. makes me mad all over again

 

[Spiveyman]

I definitely don't have enough bunk space for all to eat in peace. That is one place where the horns are an issue. Right now I have three feeders that are about 10' long. The (smarter) cows are always the first ones to the feeders. They will flat out run when they hear me holler. My longhorn cows actually do a pretty good job of feeding next to each other. They will all tilt their heads and pack in pretty well. Then my tenant farmer's charolais mix cows show up and mess up the game. They get aggressive pushing my cows around, which mine don't like so they start fighting back, but the charolais (almost twice the size of mine) have very small, but very functional horns. Mine usually loose that fight.

About then Shooter walks up and the crowd splits like Moses and the Red Sea. He'll walk up to the middle of one trough and just stand there. His horns just about cover it end to end. So he winds up feeding out of one of the troughs and the rest fight over the others. Shooter will feed next to the other longhorn cows, but not the charolais. It's weird. The two herds don't mix much. The longhorns are usually spread all the way across the field, but kind of move together around the field grazing. The other cattle bunch up and just kind of stand there. They will graze a spot right down to the dirt, then the slightest rain and you have a mud pit. It's interesting to see the personalities of the breeds playing out in a herd.

I may have to pick up some more feeders, the other thing I want to do is get the pens set up so that I can run them through the barn. There are wooden bunk feeders built into the barn, the entire length of the barn, a two sided deal with a V shaped thing above it to put hay in. Thats about 80 feet of feed space, plus it gets them happy about being in the barn.

I'd love one of those signs. The deal with the break in, my granny (81 yrs old) is living in the house on the farm right now. I live about 40 min away in Lexington. A couple months ago my mom came over and took her in to town to get groceries and such. Someone completely busted in the back door. She had French doors, both were destroyed along with the frame around the door. They ransacked the house only to figure out that granny didn't have much worth stealing. They maybe got $200 - $300 worth of stuff as everything valuable was locked in a safe. They drug the safe about 2 feet and gave up on it. However, it cost me about $800 to replace the back door and build a new frame around the doorway, trim it out and paint it. Plus the 3 - 4 weeks of time I couldn't get anything done on the farm because I was working on that door every time I was out there. I'd love to tie the punk(s) that did that to one of those feed bunks and dump 100 lb's of grain in there. It's over now, but granny hasn't left the house since then, she's afraid to, and that's not healthy for her.

 

[texasjohn]

hmm..... I got both my Mom (now passed on) and Dad a locket to carry around their neck.... press a button and a signal is sent to a reciever attached to the phone line. It dials up to 4 phone numbers and plays a voice recording. It's a better deal than the paid services. All they do is call back and ask if there is a problem, then dial 911.

In our case, it dials until a real person answers the phone (not answering machine), plays the message, then quits. An ungodly shreak emits from the unit and one can hear what is happening via the open phone line. System can be obtained from either Radio Shack or X1.

Point is, sounds like you are in my situation... have elderly relative alone that can need assistance for any of numerous reasons. This gives them a 1 button punch that allerts you (or designated others)... and you can take action based on your understanding of what is likely to be going on.

Thought you might be interested.

I well understand your description of the different actions of your different cattle breeds. Beefmasters, too, wander as they graze... mouthfull.... take about four steps....mouthfull.... several steps. They were bred for wide open spaces. The European breeds grew up in small pastures with high rainfall... I think grazing in a short space is in their genes.

 

[Spiveyman]

I'd never heard of those 1-touch deals. I'll have to look into that, thanks.

I went out last night and added 2 more 10' feed bunks to the pen. I moved the one that was by the water, so now they are spread across two sides of the pen in an "L" shape. I was also hoping this would allow more cattle access to the feed until I can get enough space for everyone. I think space might be the problem with this pen, just not enough of it for the number of head. Either group would probably be fine, but they don't seem to play nice together. The angus mixed bull (Red) charged Shooter last night while he was feeding. I was on the other side of the fence pouring grain in the bunk when Red hit him. It knocked Shooter off balance. In trying not to fall down, and to retaliate, he sent the feed bunk flying and almost came through the wire fence. Stopped my heart for a second as I was about 2 feet away. Each herd seems to have established a pecking order and the cattle in each herd seem to respect that. But there's no overall pecking order, so they challenge between the herds constantly. It's getting to be a pain in the rear. I can't enjoy my cattle as much or pattern them the way I'd like to.

One other thing I noticed, I'll have to get a vet out, but was curious if you'd ever seen anything like this. One of my heifers has a fluid-filled bulge underneath her mouth, and some kind of dark growth on the side of her eye. I didn't have a camera, so it may be hard to understand, but does that ring any bells? She seemed to move a little slow. She was a twin to a bull calf and has been a runt since birth. She's about a year old now. We don't expect much from her, but would like to at least use her for beef.

 

[texasjohn]

The general site where all the security stuff is here.

Personal Alert items are here....

Yep, you've experienced why cattle CAN become dangerous INSTANTLY.. even when all seems to be calm... critical for you and others to maintain a reasonable distance or protection such as a fence whenever you can... funny thing, on TV there is always a build up of 30 seconds or so where the ominous music lets you know of impending danger.... this just doesn't happen in real life... but, the cowboy learns how to read the sign of how animals look at each other, etc... and occasionally, not always, gets some advance warning of impending danger. Glad you didn't get between the two bulls... they wouldn't intentionally hurt you, but it's easy to get squished when in their way.

More bunks and space will help... it's always a trade off.

Heifer with problems: bulge under mouth/chin ... could be caused by some sort of foreign body that penetrated and is now abscessing... could just go away in time, be lanced, or be an ongoing problem. Here in the fall we have grasses called "spear grass" that has an extremely sharp pointed seed with a barb on the end... it will, on occasion, hit just right and get driven into a jaw which will abscess in an attempt to rid the body of this foreign material. When the ***** mess breaks open, hopefully the offending material will drain/fall out and all will close up again with little or no permanent damange.

Hmm... eye problem.... dunno... could be perhaps a wart... or perhaps cancer eye.... see photo

Since she is a poor doer... she may well be worth more to somebody else than to you... sounds like her feed conversion to meat will be well less than others in your herd.

 

[Spiveyman]

Wow, nice pictures. Thankfully it doesn't look like that. It's more on the outside of her eye, on the side of her face. I'll keep and eye on her and get a vet out there as soon as I get a chance.

In the end we may try to sell her somewhere instead of using her for beef. I'm not so much worried about feed conversion to beef since we're really not feeding them out on grain. Just grass. All this talk of feed bunks and stuff is just for training purposes. I just want to keep them trained to follow the grain bucket, but 99.9% of their diet needs to be grass. Granted she is eating grass that another animal could be eating, but for now we have more grass than cattle, so we'll probably just see how she plays out.

We took a steer down last night for slaughter, best one yet. His horns were actually quite impressive, had a little trouble getting through the chute, but he was so calm it was great. Instead of twisting his tail so hard it would almost break and laying the hot shot on him, I just stood there and kind of patted his rump. He looked around calmly and turned his head. We're such regulars at the slaughter house now we unloaded him, weighed him him, put him in one of the over night pens, and then went and told the owner that we'd done that. Even when he was standing on the scales, he stuck his nose out like he wanted me to pet it. I wish they could all be like that one. That last bull wanted to kill us.

On the way down we were discussing the fate of Shooter. I think we are both ready to move on, genetically speaking, but we both really like him. Our options are to try to sell him, go ahead and make a shoulder mount out of him, or we were thinking about banding him and leaving him out there as a steer. Maybe we'll get more horn growth, not sure, but then mount him some time later. Do you have any idea what happens when you castrate a bull at 4 yrs old? Obviously one that is cut or banded young will fill out like a steer, but at 4 he's got the frame of a bull already.

 

[texasjohn]

hmm... you got me re late banding and further growth.... I kinda think he's got his body growth now... horns will continue to grow however... but perhaps not as much as they would had he been cut earlier.

Just an idea... if she is reasonably gentle, you might save some $ by just loading her and taking her to the vet... he might look at her and say.. don't bother... or, just tie her head off in the trailer and do minor surgery or whatever doctoring needed and let you take her home right then. My philosophy is.. anything to avoid paying a vet visit bill.

A comment re moving on genetically.... this is an extremely difficult thing to predict in an unproven bull... in longhorns it could even be argued that EPD's are counterproductive and their wide use will not be beneficial to the breed..... my technique is to use older bulls where you can see the cows he's on and the calves produced.... this way, your risk of regressing genetically is reduced to near zero while you are able to decide if the bull will actually help your herd... and, of course, observe the disposition of his calves as well as his own.

 

[Spiveyman]

Well, we're still talking about what to do. Nothing decided yet. It's kind of a catch 22, he's such a great looking bull we don't want to get rid of him, but just the same we don't want to deal with him or trying to work him either. I probably just need some patience like you suggested a while back. Train him to come into and out of the barn calmly. Feed him right in the middle of the chute... all that. I think that was very good advice, I probably just need the patience to follow through, but on the other hand I was thinking back to the moment when he tried to jump over the Dube chute. I was about 3 feet away from him when he bounced off and landed, turned and started looking for an exit. For a moment there I wasn't feeling very secure in my 180 lbs Vs. whatever he weighs 1,800 lb?? He still never made one aggressive move towards me, but I don't want to be there is he ever does. A healthy fear is a powerful tool for both of us.

 

[texasjohn]

Believe me, I DO understand the dilema.

Problem is, you ARE dealing with a wide variety of stock, some yours, some raised by others. Thus, you CANNOT control/assure that EVERY animal you will be dealing with will be calm in all conditions. Thus, the ONLY solution is to spend time, effort, $$ on pens, trailers and equipment that is capable of controlling even a rank animal when it presents itself.

The problem is, as an uncle once told me, "I already know how to ranch better than I do." Point is, you already knew that a bull(et) proof pen setup is the solution to many problem animals.

So, until that pen setup arrives, the only solution is to be as careful as possible personally when working animals. Unfortunately, with rank stock, this REQUIRES that you put your body at risk on occasion. For example, I have goaded an animal to run at me to get it to move to where I needed it to be.... I had preplanned where/how I would jump over the fence.. and it worked but if I had tripped, it would not have been a pretty sight.

So, this boils down to the risk level y'all are willing to accept. I would clearly advise getting rid of him one way or another except he is not aggressive to people (so far and seems like the risk of intentional injury is low) although if he bounces off of something and runs into you by accident the laws of physics would take over and you would bounce further than he would as a result of the collision. Just be sure that his replacement does not have the same or worse behaviour concerns.

 

[Spiveyman]

...Thus, the ONLY solution is to spend time, effort, $$ on pens, trailers and equipment that is capable of controlling even a rank animal when it presents itself... ...a bull(et) proof pen setup is the solution to many problem animals.

Yep. I went to the North American Livestock Expo this weekend in Louisville with that goal in mind. We looked at several trailers and found one that was made like a tank. It's about $7,000, very basic compared to the horse trailers they had there, pricey compared to the Goosenecks, but that think was very well built.

We also found a handling system out of NE Pearson Livestock Eq. that was awesome. Very sturdy. Also pricey, but compared to a Dr. bill these days, it might be worth it!

 

[texasjohn]

yep, you've discovered now that you can make a small fortune in cattle these days (out of a large one)