Alberta Solar

[Egon]

Key point connected to the grid and on your, "grid" what happens at night and when there is no wind? Take out the fossil fired power plants and solar and wind won't work. Next point connected, most of the solar and wind farms have to be in rural areas people have not proven to be to inclined to have power lines running through there back yards. Once again, how is the solar and wind going to work at night and when there is no wind?

How does the coal fired plant run when a tube bursts or other nefarious little mechanical problems arise.

 

[5030]

....and all almog I was under the impression that Alberta was a peach.....lol

We just had 2 windtowers come down here in Michigan last week, snapped right off. Must have been inferior Chinese steel the tower tubes were made from......

 

[buickanddeere]

That would be a solution, and I could jump on the nuclear band wagon. However, they are decommissioning the nuke plant and putting up wind farms and a natural gas plant and that is all in about 60 mile radius of where we live. How that is decreasing our carbon foot print I will never know. Oh, and they build the wind towers in that same area. The original post was expounding on the wonders of solar power. I have a hard time with solar and the wind industry telling us it is the next best thing since sliced bread, when it can't work off the grid, cost effectively any way. Then turn around and trash fossil fueled fired plants, which will run just fine with out wind and solar. Not to mention the paranoia surrounding nuclear power.
His figures maybe wrong, that is however not what the general public thinks, they think that wind mill powers a 100 homes. They leave out the part it can't do it without the help of those fossil fueled fired power plants. How about we say it this way, it powers x amount of homes when the sun shines and the wind blows and the rest of the time, it works with a little help from those evil fossil fuel fired plants. So, in my little world I fail to see how wind and solar are lowing the carbon foot print, my electrical bill and ever going to work.

What happened is the greenies got smart and legislated a win win for themselves. The subsidized wind turbines and solar pushed the wholesale rates so low that they bankrupted the nuclear plant.

 

[buickanddeere]

The whole business model for the Fit program, is that the generator is obligated to meet the contract terms based on the price agreed to per kWhr.

$30B sounds like the number we are on the hook for as a result of Ontario Hydro downloading it's debt to the province. Remember that? You should because it's half the value of every monthly bill you pay.... And they have their hands out for another $14B to refurbish Darlington.

That down loading was paid off 2-3 years ago actually. Still billing the customers however with the debt retirement.The scheme allowed some plants to be "given" to buddies of Mike Harris.
As for refurbishment. The cost is paid out of the operating budget and $$$ earned by selling electricity. Darlington while public owned does not bill the tax payer for refurb.
Are you surprised that a power plant operating at 100% power for 20+ years may need to be overhauled ? How do you feel about shivering in the dark ?

 

[truckdiagnostics]

How does the coal fired plant run when a tube bursts or other nefarious little mechanical problems arise.

Not the same! Last time I checked that doesn't happen every night and whenever the wind dies.

 

[buickanddeere]

How does the coal fired plant run when a tube bursts or other nefarious little mechanical problems arise.

Systems are 2 X 100% or 3 X 50%. Something can fail, switch to backup and keep operating while repairing the failed components. As for leaks and failures. the systems are over designed and tested before being put into service. It's not the type of place where equipment is run to failure. Service is performed before failure.

 

[Egon]

Systems are 2 X 100% or 3 X 50%. Something can fail, switch to backup and keep operating while repairing the failed components. As for leaks and failures. the systems are over designed and tested before being put into service. It's not the type of place where equipment is run to failure. Service is performed before failure.

All this is done with no down time? All repairs can be made with standby units switched online. When major rebuild time comes around how long do the plants stay down?

Is the back up the same as spinning reserves?

 

[Egon]

Not the same! Last time I checked that doesn't happen every night and whenever the wind dies.

But it does happen. The plants also need scheduled maintenance shutdowns. Major distribution lines from one central point can also be affected by weather. A distributed supply source would have alternatives possible.

 

[tcartwri]

That down loading was paid off 2-3 years ago actually.

It's still on the latest books from the Auditor general, sitting at $12B. That debt has been paid at least twice over in interest. Nuclear is one of the MAIN reasons Ontario has the debt problem it has.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

But it does happen. The plants also need scheduled maintenance shutdowns. Major distribution lines from one central point can also be affected by weather. A distributed supply source would have alternatives possible.

Hate to disappoint but all those power plants connected together do the same thing, if one plant is shut down the others can make up the difference, and yes, they do it at night and when the wind is not blowing. The same power lines you plan on using for your solar grid is the same that the fossil fueled plants are using.

 

[Egon]

Hate to disappoint but all those power plants connected together do the same thing, if one plant is shut down the others can make up the difference, and yes, they do it at night and when the wind is not blowing. The same power lines you plan on using for your solar grid is the same that the fossil fueled plants are using.

So where does the excess power come from?
One plant down means another plant of equal size must come online. You're saying there's full plant backup.

Does the wind not blow over the entire country at the same time?

You may also note that greater distribution means less power line loss and less disruption if a major line is effected.

 

[tcartwri]

So where does the excess power come from?
One plant down means another plant of equal size must come online. You're saying there's full plant backup.

Does the wind not blow over the entire country at the same time?

You may also note that greater distribution means less power line loss and less disruption if a major line is effected.

This "excess" power has been going on long before renewables were added. Blaming it on the wind and the sun is hilarious.

 

[Egon]

This "excess" power has been going on long before renewables were added. Blaming it on the wind and the sun is hilarious.

So it is.

 

[tcartwri]

So it is.

Ask Labrador about excess power and short sighted energy contracts.

 

[buickanddeere]

All this is done with no down time? All repairs can be made with standby units switched online. When major rebuild time comes around how long do the plants stay down?

Is the back up the same as spinning reserves?

Spinning reserve is an entire 600Mw coal plant or Natural Gas at full temperature , full pressure and full speed but carrying very little load. Something like having a 200HP diesel tractor sitting in the yard running full rpm in neutral . While the 200HP solar or wind tractor in the field fails.
The 2x 100% or 3 x 50% would be for example a end shield cooling system . It has two coolers each large enough to disipate 100% of the heat. And two out of the three installed pumps flow enough coolant.
If one of the coolers needs the silt cleaned out or inspected . Switch to the other . If one of the running pump's seals start to leak. Switch and valve in the 3rd pump and service the leaker.

 

[buickanddeere]

But it does happen. The plants also need scheduled maintenance shutdowns. Major distribution lines from one central point can also be affected by weather. A distributed supply source would have alternatives possible.

Already have that. I don't understand what you believe the current distribution grid is and what this distributed supply is that you keep talking about .

 

[buickanddeere]

It's still on the latest books from the Auditor general, sitting at $12B. That debt has been paid at least twice over in interest. Nuclear is one of the MAIN reasons Ontario has the debt problem it has.

How much debt does Ontario have ? Which debt? Ontario Governemt Debt or OPG debt ? OPG always has to have debt due to legislation. All capital projects are via borrowed money . Once the project starts up and produces power, OPG starts paying back their debt. The cost of OPG debt does not even register compared to Ontario debt.
Do you know of anybody here that borrows $$$ for seed, fuel, fertilizer and spray. Then pays it back once the crop is harvested? What is the difference between that and OPG ?

 

[buickanddeere]

This "excess" power has been going on long before renewables were added. Blaming it on the wind and the sun is hilarious.

Just looked at sygration this morning. The wholesale price the entire day is zero to sub zero. Yet wind, solar, gas and native hydro electric are being paid full subsidized wholesale price .While Hydro One is paying NY and Michigan to take the power.
Demand is down in the province because the increased electrical rates have driven industry out.
Pay wind, solar, NG and native hydro electric the actual wholesale grid rate and let see what happens.
Where did you and Egon get the idea that the ideal method to make electricity is expensive wind , natural gas and solar . Then have cheaper conventional nuclear and hydro electric backup the green power ?

 

[tcartwri]

Then have cheaper conventional nuclear and hydro electric backup the green power ?

The whole point is that Nuclear is just about the most expensive option... in Ontario. You cannot debate that. The cost to run those plants and maintain them has nothing to do with the end cost to the consumer.

 

[tcartwri]

How mich debt does Ontario have ? Which debt? Ontario Governemt Debt or OPG debt ? OPG always has to have debt due to legislation. All capital projects are via borrowed money . Once the project starts up and produces power, OPG starts paying back their debt. The cost of OPG debt does not even register compared to Ontario debt.
Do you know of anybody here that borrows $$$ for seed, fuel, fertilizer and spray. Then pays it back once the crop is harvested? What is the difference between that and OPG ?

Ontario debt. You're either clueless or you are deliberately promoting misinformation.