Alberta Solar

[Egon]

And btw what are we supposed to do with the extra power that we paid a subsidized wholesale rate for. On nights , weekends and just about anytime spring and fall. When base load generation supplies the entire grid demand .

So, the alternatives can supply electrical power. Seems the "grid" may not be flexible enough to properly distribute the power available. Is that because it's in need of serious upgrading?

 

[buickanddeere]

So, the alternatives can supply electrical power. Seems the "grid" may not be flexible enough to properly distribute the power available. Is that because it's in need of serious upgrading?

??? Not at all. It's about the wholesale grid price at various time of day and year.
It's like the price of oil in Saudi affects the price of WTIC. Doesn't mater if there is transportation.

 

[tcartwri]

Better check your numbers on the subsidized price . And btw what are we supposed to do with the extra power that we paid a subsidized wholesale rate for. On nights , weekends and just about anytime spring and fall. When base load generation supplies the entire grid demand .
FIT Program Pricing | Feed-in Tariff Program - Independent Electricity System Operator

That's only for 10 to 500 kW farms. He builds industrial sites of up to 20 MW.

I don't understand your comment about the off peak production. They ( we ) are only paid for what is produced, and it is almost always at peak demand.

 

[tcartwri]

This is one of his sites. 15 MW

15 MW Farm in Edwards ON

 

[rmorey]

Our situation is a little different. We were told by Ontario Hydro, that power was $150,000 due south of us, so we put in an off grid, 4kW PV system, dual 4kW, 240v inverters, 2,200 ah battery bank and a 14 kW generator, all for just under $30k. Our ROI was right side up, the day we flipped the switch. :thumbsup:

 

[buickanddeere]

That's only for 10 to 500 kW farms. He builds industrial sites of up to 20 MW.

I don't understand your comment about the off peak production. They ( we ) are only paid for what is produced, and it is almost always at peak demand.

Check the wholesale price of power , demand and production at sygration.com or IESO Power Data

Why are we paying solar between 40 cents to 80.2 cents and wind 13.5 cents when the whole sale grid price is between 0 to 4 cents ? Then paying newyork and Michigan to take the surplus power ?

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[tcartwri]

Check the wholesale price of power , demand and production at sygration.com or IESO Power Data

Why are we paying solar between 40 cents to 80.2 cents and wind 13.5 cents when the whole sale grid price is between 0 to 4 cents ? Then paying newyork and Michigan to take the surplus power ?

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You could ask the nuclear guys the same question.

The original offering of 80 was to get things rolling, which it did with a vengeance. Personally I think they totally underestimated the capability of the common person to put one of these systems in. Sure there were allot of people paying $100K for someone to do it for them.... But there were also allot of people like myself who had the experience and the skill to do it for a little over a third of that.

Then the Chinese flooded the market with panels and invertors at a third of the North American price, and that's when everyone went bankrupt.

So you may complain about the money they are paying some early generators, but it had a huge effect on the industry and the cost of current systems. And it's still coming down.

 

[Egon]

??? Not at all. It's about the wholesale grid price at various time of day and year.
It's like the price of oil in Saudi affects the price of WTIC. Doesn't mater if there is transportation.

So you get back to supply & demand which is a grid issue.

 

[buickanddeere]

You could ask the nuclear guys the same question.

The original offering of 80 was to get things rolling, which it did with a vengeance. Personally I think they totally underestimated the capability of the common person to put one of these systems in. Sure there were allot of people paying $100K for someone to do it for them.... But there were also allot of people like myself who had the experience and the skill to do it for a little over a third of that.

Then the Chinese flooded the market with panels and invertors at a third of the North American price, and that's when everyone went bankrupt.

So you may complain about the money they are paying some early generators, but it had a huge effect on the industry and the cost of current systems. And it's still coming down.

Given that you are raking in 80.2 cents , your judgement maybe biased towards solar.
We are still stuck with excess production from subsidized solar , wind and NG. Which is driving the wholesale rate for nuclear and hydro electric to zero. And costing the rate payer fees to dump the extra in NY and Michigan.
Would it not be better to increase the wholesale price by the billion plus paid in 2014 and give that billion to Ontario producers . Instead of giving the electricity away for free and paying the billion in fees to US utilities ?

 

[buickanddeere]

So you get back to supply & demand which is a grid issue.

Grid issues have zero to do with supply and demand. No more than oil tankers set the price of Saudi oil.

 

[Egon]

Grid issues have zero to do with supply and demand. No more than oil tankers set the price of Saudi oil.

If you can't move it you can't sell it.

 

[buickanddeere]

No problems moving it. I have no idea where your belief could be sourced from.

 

[tcartwri]

Given that you are raking in 80.2 cents , your judgement maybe biased towards solar.
We are still stuck with excess production from subsidized solar , wind and NG. Which is driving the wholesale rate for nuclear and hydro electric to zero. And costing the rate payer fees to dump the extra in NY and Michigan.
Would it not be better to increase the wholesale price by the billion plus paid in 2014 and give that billion to Ontario producers . Instead of giving the electricity away for free and paying the billion in fees to US utilities ?

Solar is less than 1% of the grid. Wind less than 9%. It is almost inconsequential in it's effect on the market.

The reason we have a surplus is because Ontario's manufacturing sector is not consuming it.... Hopefully that will change.

 

[buickanddeere]

We have producers that are guarantied to make $$$ if they run. Infact some still make $$$ after being dispatched off.
Don't forget that the new NG turbines are also paid 16.5 cents to run . Sygration and IESO both show during times when wholesale rate is zero. Wind , native contract hydro electric , NG and wind are still generating and being paid a guarentied profit.
How would you like your neighbour to be paid $9.00 a bushel for all the corn he can grow . You are only paid market rate.

 

[tcartwri]

We have producers that are guarantied to make $$$ if they run. Infact some still make $$$ after being dispatched off.
Don't forget that the new NG turbines are also paid 16.5 cents to run . Sygration and IESO both show during times when wholesale rate is zero. Wind , native contract hydro electric , NG and wind are still generating and being paid a guarentied profit.
How would you like your neighbour to be paid $9.00 a bushel for all the corn he can grow . You are only paid market rate.

And we have nuclear plants that are given 50 year no interest loans, grants and debt forgiveness when they overspend.

What's your answer.

 

[Egon]

No problems moving it. I have no idea where your belief could be sourced from.

What; you do not know the answere!! Just look at your previous post!

If you can move it you can sell it.

 

[Knight9]

What kind of subsidies they be getting.

No way around it, solar and wind do work!

Hi Egon,

Not sure if your subsidies comment is referring to the Danish or the Alberta article, but in the case of the Alberta install you started the thread with, you can see my comments. They had 80% subsidies from the various government levels and agencies. 80%!!! Who can't "make it work" for 20% of the cost? And that 20% was likely fully borne by the people who bought the homes. But extrapolate that out. $5.525 million dollars in subsidies for 52 homes. Alberta averages over 30,000 new homes a year. If we made those subsidies the new norm and required a similar solar system tie for each home, that would cost the various government agencies about $3.2 billion dollars. Any thoughts on where we would come up with that money? I know Ontario and the Feds would say "just borrow it", but we know how well that works out.

 

[buickanddeere]

And we have nuclear plants that are given 50 year no interest loans, grants and debt forgiveness when they overspend.

What's your answer.

I don't know where you sourced your info from. I work for the company and I can assure you that none of that is true. We even have people tell us that there is no money to dispose of the waste.

 

[buickanddeere]

What; you do not know the answere!! Just look at your previous post!

If you can move it you can sell it.

The surplus is moved outside of the province and sold cheap, given away or the surrounding utilities are paid to take the green power that is not shut down. What is there that is not understood? 27 interconnections are not enough ?



27 interconnections with other utilities at 345,000, 230,000, 115,000
and 69,000 volts. This number includes nine interconnections with
New York, ten will Québec, four with Michigan, three with Manitoba
and one with Minnesota.

http://www.hydroone.com/ourcompany/mediacentre/documents/hydro_one_at_a_glance.pdf

http://www.hydroone.com/RegulatoryA...t A/Tab_6_Sched_1-Transmission_System_Map.pdf

 

[buickanddeere]

Hi Egon,

Not sure if your subsidies comment is referring to the Danish or the Alberta article, but in the case of the Alberta install you started the thread with, you can see my comments. They had 80% subsidies from the various government levels and agencies. 80%!!! Who can't "make it work" for 20% of the cost? And that 20% was likely fully borne by the people who bought the homes. But extrapolate that out. $5.525 million dollars in subsidies for 52 homes. Alberta averages over 30,000 new homes a year. If we made those subsidies the new norm and required a similar solar system tie for each home, that would cost the various government agencies about $3.2 billion dollars. Any thoughts on where we would come up with that money? I know Ontario and the Feds would say "just borrow it", but we know how well that works out.

Ontario gave over 30 Billion $$$ to the Wind Turbine companies as incentives.