Alberta Solar

[Egon]

Hi Egon,

Not sure if your subsidies comment is referring to the Danish or the Alberta article, but in the case of the Alberta install you started the thread with, you can see my comments. They had 80% subsidies from the various government levels and agencies. 80%!!! Who can't "make it work" for 20% of the cost? And that 20% was likely fully borne by the people who bought the homes. But extrapolate that out. $5.525 million dollars in subsidies for 52 homes. Alberta averages over 30,000 new homes a year. If we made those subsidies the new norm and required a similar solar system tie for each home, that would cost the various government agencies about $3.2 billion dollars. Any thoughts on where we would come up with that money? I know Ontario and the Feds would say "just borrow it", but we know how well that works out.

Good afternoon Mr. Knight. The subsidies were for the Danish Island.

Drakes Landing most definetly was govt. funded but as an experimental Prodject. As such it has been a success as evidenced by the amount of outside energy required. I have no idea what the breakdown of costs would be or how the solar portion is broken out.

[video]http://www.dlsc.ca/about.htm[/video]


Each house sold for an average of $380,000.
Homeowners are receiving an average of $60 per month solar utility bill for heating.
$7 million for the initial start up of the Drake Landing Solar Community project.
If this project were repeated it would cost $4 million, as approximately $3 million was for one-time research and development.
Optimal community size would be 200-300 homes to realize the economies of scale. The number of systems would remain the same but the number of boreholes would just need to increase.[10]

 

[Egon]

The surplus is moved outside of the province and sold cheap, given away or the surrounding utilities are paid to take the green power that is not shut down. What is there that is not understood? 27 interconnections are not enough ?





27 interconnections with other utilities at 345,000, 230,000, 115,000
and 69,000 volts. This number includes nine interconnections with
New York, ten will Qu饕ec, four with Michigan, three with Manitoba
and one with Minnesota.

http://www.hydroone.com/ourcompany/mediacentre/documents/hydro_one_at_a_glance.pdf

http://www.hydroone.com/RegulatoryA...t A/Tab_6_Sched_1-Transmission_System_Map.pdf

So the power is being moved which is good. It would indicate that the greenie whabuscits do produce electrical power.

 

[buickanddeere]

So the power is being moved which is good. It would indicate that the greenie whabuscits do produce electrical power.

Problem is that solar on weekends and wind anytime off peak costs the rate payer billions in subsidies.

 

[Egon]

You mean there is a difference between week day solar and week end solar?

By billions what do you mean?

So why are contributions at on peak acceptable but not at off peak? Is on peak power delivery a little on the low side? Or is the system fluxuating from low to high with only meeting optimum on the change?

It has indications of an inflexible grid system.

 

[tcartwri]

Ontario gave over 30 Billion $$$ to the Wind Turbine companies as incentives.

You need a citation for this. It's bs.

 

[buickanddeere]

You mean there is a difference between week day solar and week end solar?

By billions what do you mean?

So why are contributions at on peak acceptable but not at off peak? Is on peak power delivery a little on the low side? Or is the system fluxuating from low to high with only meeting optimum on the change?

It has indications of an inflexible grid system.

Solar is only useful for mid day peaks. The mid day peak on weekends and any day during the spring and fall. Are much lower than summer or winter peaks. Adding subsidized extra generation when base load generation is already sufficient means we have to pay NY and Michigan to take the extra power.
What pray tell is the electrical grid is supposed to do?
In our case the grid carries electrical power.
Now what if five adjoining markets Quebec, NY, Michigan, Minnesota and Manitoba are also operating at low demand at the same time on mostly base load generation. They also have the same day and the same time zone or the adjacent time zone. Do you think they need or want the power ?
What do you propose? Send the extra power to China or Europe ?

 

[Egon]

You're saying the large generating stations have no flexibility? Wouldn't a segment of produced power that is easily regulated be desirable for the swings?

 

[truckdiagnostics]

You're saying the large generating stations have no flexibility? Wouldn't a segment of produced power that is easily regulated be desirable for the swings?

I do believe that is what he is saying! It is not like you can shut them off and turn them on when a cloud or the wind dies down! I could be wrong here. Yes, they have flexibility, to a point. They are being asked/made to make up for solar and wind, and forced to buy it when they don't want or need it. One the week end they don;t need or want the solar, there plant has to run at x, so since they are forced to buy the wind and solar they have to go somewhere with it.
Can wind and solar stand on there own without the grid? I am all for wind an solar when it stands on its own and when it connects to the grid it is not. And no matter how many post you open on the issue you can't get over the fact that solar and wind makes no sense with out the grid. You want wind, you want solar, figure out how to keep it off the grid with out effecting MY electrical bill and it does effect MY electric bill.

 

[buickanddeere]

You're saying the large generating stations have no flexibility? Wouldn't a segment of produced power that is easily regulated be desirable for the swings?

You did not know that ?

 

[Egon]

You did not know that ?

Yes I know that. Small power sources widely spread interconnected to the grid should work well for helping regulation.

 

[Knight9]

You need a citation for this. It's bs.

I don't know about the 30 Billion...but this is quite the read! Ontario Wind Turbines | Ontario has the most expensive electricity in North America

 

[buickanddeere]

Yes I know that. Small power sources widely spread interconnected to the grid should work well for helping regulation.

Efficiency of scale. One 500Mw generator costs less to build and operate than ten 50Mw power plants.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

Yes I know that. Small power sources widely spread interconnected to the grid should work well for helping regulation.

Key point connected to the grid and on your, "grid" what happens at night and when there is no wind? Take out the fossil fired power plants and solar and wind won't work. Next point connected, most of the solar and wind farms have to be in rural areas people have not proven to be to inclined to have power lines running through there back yards. Once again, how is the solar and wind going to work at night and when there is no wind?

 

[tcartwri]

I don't know about the 30 Billion...but this is quite the read! Ontario Wind Turbines | Ontario has the most expensive electricity in North America

Total wind production last year, from the auditor generals report, was $1B....

Yet someone would have us believe we just handed them thirty times that amount... Just for fun.

 

[tcartwri]

Efficiency of scale. One 500Mw generator costs less to build and operate than ten 50Mw power plants.

What if that one generator is nuclear.

 

[buickanddeere]

What if that one generator is nuclear.

Even better

 

[buickanddeere]

Total wind production last year, from the auditor generals report, was $1B....

Yet someone would have us believe we just handed them thirty times that amount... Just for fun.

It was a billion that wind and solar cost Ontario to pay the producers then turn around and give that power to Michigan and NY.30 billion is for the wind program infrastructure.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

What if that one generator is nuclear.

That would be a solution, and I could jump on the nuclear band wagon. However, they are decommissioning the nuke plant and putting up wind farms and a natural gas plant and that is all in about 60 mile radius of where we live. How that is decreasing our carbon foot print I will never know. Oh, and they build the wind towers in that same area. The original post was expounding on the wonders of solar power. I have a hard time with solar and the wind industry telling us it is the next best thing since sliced bread, when it can't work off the grid, cost effectively any way. Then turn around and trash fossil fueled fired plants, which will run just fine with out wind and solar. Not to mention the paranoia surrounding nuclear power.
His figures maybe wrong, that is however not what the general public thinks, they think that wind mill powers a 100 homes. They leave out the part it can't do it without the help of those fossil fueled fired power plants. How about we say it this way, it powers x amount of homes when the sun shines and the wind blows and the rest of the time, it works with a little help from those evil fossil fuel fired plants. So, in my little world I fail to see how wind and solar are lowing the carbon foot print, my electrical bill and ever going to work.

 

[tcartwri]

The whole business model for the Fit program, is that the generator is obligated to meet the contract terms based on the price agreed to per kWhr.

$30B sounds like the number we are on the hook for as a result of Ontario Hydro downloading it's debt to the province. Remember that? You should because it's half the value of every monthly bill you pay.... And they have their hands out for another $14B to refurbish Darlington.

 

[Egon]

Efficiency of scale. One 500Mw generator costs less to build and operate than ten 50Mw power plants.

And then you give the generated power away because there is no flexibility and if a physical event there is nothing. A physical event can occur at the power generating site or on the grid. Main supply gets the ice storm treatment and everyone is down.