EdKing
Platinum Member
Harv, I agree with you 100%. There is a lot of stuff out there science has yet to explain. I have seen 2 different dousers in action, and now I am a believer.
A Natural Spring?
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DVerbarg
Platinum Member
Harv,
Much of dowsing is the belief that you can do it. If you are doubting then it does not work. Very strange. Wish I could expain it in scientific terms but can't do it in a way that totally holds water /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif.
Just noticed that you are now a "moderator". Spiffy new title! Guess your TBN dues will be doubling again /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif!
Much of dowsing is the belief that you can do it. If you are doubting then it does not work. Very strange. Wish I could expain it in scientific terms but can't do it in a way that totally holds water /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif.
Just noticed that you are now a "moderator". Spiffy new title! Guess your TBN dues will be doubling again /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif!
patrickg
Veteran Member
Thanks Harv, great story. My parents, being raised rural, had many things to say about experiences with water witches. I used to roll my eyes in disbelief and wonder. We, who like to think ourselves rational and scientific, often are at a loss to understand or explain something such as water witching. Of course it doesn't help that the "practitioners" of varied "paranormal" arts frequently don't really have a clue as to how the phenomenon, in which they are a direct participant, actually works although they may have a strong opinion held with great ferver, just wrong.
Again, tanks for sharing.
Patrick
Again, tanks for sharing.
Patrick
TresCrows
Elite Member
I think I don't care if it is the stick or his body that is responding because it is not responding to anything, as a skeptical scientist I think it is all hocus pocus, it is unverifialbe and in my opinion along the lines of an urban legend or other such. That is not making fun -- of you, but I do not believe my destiny is guided by the stars, I do not go to palm readers, I put no stock in water witchers or such foolishness and myth.
That said, I work with several fellows who claim to be able to witch water and this very night we got into it and I was able to witch me up some water hidden under some tarps in a water jug. Hmmmmmmm, what am I thinking here--it is just smoke and mirrors and tall tales and make for good story telling. I put my faith in God but when it comes to finding water or oil or whatever I am going with the science. J
That said, I work with several fellows who claim to be able to witch water and this very night we got into it and I was able to witch me up some water hidden under some tarps in a water jug. Hmmmmmmm, what am I thinking here--it is just smoke and mirrors and tall tales and make for good story telling. I put my faith in God but when it comes to finding water or oil or whatever I am going with the science. J
TresCrows
Elite Member
Science deals with fact, verifiable and reapeatable. The fact is that water witching like so many of these things when placed under the cold, hard light of scientific scrutiny fail miserably--time and time again--it has been demonstrated, in fact, repeatedly using proper scientific and statistical methods that the witching succeded only equal to or less than random chance. THEREFORE, there is no, I repeat, no phenomena to investigate. Another way of saying it is that the experiments have concluded no correlation to water and water witching methods or water witches or their bodies, coat hanger wires, copper rods or willow branches can be demonstrated and thus it has been investigated and the mystery solved, the only mystery to me is that people in the 21st Century still believe such things and even guide their lives by TV palm readers. There is no such thing as water witching, only people who believe in it and that does not merit scientific investigation. Sorry for being such a meanie /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif . I am just no fun at all. J
Egon
Epic Contributor
TresCrows:
Oh dear, the legends you are relegateing to the waste bin.
My father and grandfather used to drill water wells [ as a help neighbours, no payment ] with a cable tool rig. The whole thing was made from scrap materials and the only thing of real expense was the pipe vise and the one inch pipe they used. They did not beleive in Water Witchers and would drill where the well would be in the most convenient spot for use. I've actually helped on a few. The simplicity of the rig still ammazes me. It would take two or three day to drill a well and maximum depth was around three hundred feet.
Egon
Oh dear, the legends you are relegateing to the waste bin.
My father and grandfather used to drill water wells [ as a help neighbours, no payment ] with a cable tool rig. The whole thing was made from scrap materials and the only thing of real expense was the pipe vise and the one inch pipe they used. They did not beleive in Water Witchers and would drill where the well would be in the most convenient spot for use. I've actually helped on a few. The simplicity of the rig still ammazes me. It would take two or three day to drill a well and maximum depth was around three hundred feet.
Egon
DVerbarg
Platinum Member
J,
<font color=blue>Science deals with fact, verifiable and reapeatable. </font color=blue> Except when it comes to evolution and events that occured millions or billions of years ago that we did not witness, but we won't touch that one /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
The study(ies) that was done that you refer to, was it in regards to deep wells or shallow water? If it was deep wells I can understand that. But I've personally witnessed too many instances of shallow water being found to write it off. I used to view water witching, as you call it and I used to call it, as total nonsense -- until I saw it being done repeatedly with amazing results.
Harv gave the illustration (don't mean to drag you into this Harv, but you did post publicly /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif) where he saw it work and had some results then did not work for him later. This would support your lack of repeatability claim. Was that lack of repeatability due to lack of training or just the nonsense factor? Of course you would argue that it was nonsense, but how would you explain the engineer's ability to tell Harv how the irrigation pipes were laid out?
Now before you totally write me off, may already be too late for that, let me say that I like science. Was raised by a couple engineers. I like to be able to explain things in terms that are verifiable and repeatable. However, I have learned over the years that science is limited. Western medicine, one of the great bulwarks of science, cannot solve many issues. Some for lack of time, resources and knowledge but other things because the healing lies outside of science. The human will and emotion. Scientists usually find a way to discredit anything that does not fit into the narrow box of science, like using the "that treatment did not help you, it was the placebo effect". Is the "placebo effect" bad? Many of our greatest modern medicines work only slightly better then placebos (some around 50%), yet they are hearalded as great scientific achievement. Hmmm, repeatable? I think not.
Science changes its mind as new knowledge comes to the forefront. What is adamantly defended as truth today may be relegated to the "learning" pile tomorrow as we learn new things. Should we then toss out something just because we don't understand?
Of course you feel that <font color=blue>there is no, I repeat, no phenomena to investigate</font color=blue>. That's fine. Just wish that you would be able to see some of the results that I've seen. Maybe then we could explore why.
<font color=blue>Science deals with fact, verifiable and reapeatable. </font color=blue> Except when it comes to evolution and events that occured millions or billions of years ago that we did not witness, but we won't touch that one /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
The study(ies) that was done that you refer to, was it in regards to deep wells or shallow water? If it was deep wells I can understand that. But I've personally witnessed too many instances of shallow water being found to write it off. I used to view water witching, as you call it and I used to call it, as total nonsense -- until I saw it being done repeatedly with amazing results.
Harv gave the illustration (don't mean to drag you into this Harv, but you did post publicly /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif) where he saw it work and had some results then did not work for him later. This would support your lack of repeatability claim. Was that lack of repeatability due to lack of training or just the nonsense factor? Of course you would argue that it was nonsense, but how would you explain the engineer's ability to tell Harv how the irrigation pipes were laid out?
Now before you totally write me off, may already be too late for that, let me say that I like science. Was raised by a couple engineers. I like to be able to explain things in terms that are verifiable and repeatable. However, I have learned over the years that science is limited. Western medicine, one of the great bulwarks of science, cannot solve many issues. Some for lack of time, resources and knowledge but other things because the healing lies outside of science. The human will and emotion. Scientists usually find a way to discredit anything that does not fit into the narrow box of science, like using the "that treatment did not help you, it was the placebo effect". Is the "placebo effect" bad? Many of our greatest modern medicines work only slightly better then placebos (some around 50%), yet they are hearalded as great scientific achievement. Hmmm, repeatable? I think not.
Science changes its mind as new knowledge comes to the forefront. What is adamantly defended as truth today may be relegated to the "learning" pile tomorrow as we learn new things. Should we then toss out something just because we don't understand?
Of course you feel that <font color=blue>there is no, I repeat, no phenomena to investigate</font color=blue>. That's fine. Just wish that you would be able to see some of the results that I've seen. Maybe then we could explore why.
skent
Platinum Member
I have a cousin that douses with the copper rods (actually, Northern Tool and Equipment sells, or used to, dousing rods). Three years ago during the drought we had, the hand dug well at the farm ALMOST went dry. It was less then 3 or 4 gallons per HOUR recovery. He doused and gave me three locations where he had a strong "signal".
We waited and the well recovered. This year we were not so lucky. We hired (at the insistance of family members) a douser and he "found" water at the same three locations as my cousin did three years ago. (not knowing where cousin doused) The strongest location was about 100 feet from the house and we went 405 feet and hit nothing but dust all the way down ($2000 hole). The second site involved removing a large blue spruce and taking down some power/telephone lines. This site was between the house and the first site. We hit water at 205' (12 GPM) but the well had to be screened. Choice was go with what we had and pay the additional 2400 to screen well or try a new hole. We went with what we knew we had and screened it.
Bottom line was (as explained to me by those who drill) the lay of the land is mostly responsible for a reserve of water available to use as a well. Typically, your luck on the slope of/or near the top of a hill or ridge will be better for finding water. (just the opposite of what I thought) The pressure under the surface that is responsible for forming the hill or ridge (upward pressure on the rock) is also the pressure that will ultimately break/crack the rock layer and allow water to pool.
The problem in my area was the rock was broken too much (too fine) and like digging a hole in the sand, the sides of the well would calapse if not supported.
Well has been connected to the farm now for three weeks. Water has a good taste and has a PH of 7.1.
We waited and the well recovered. This year we were not so lucky. We hired (at the insistance of family members) a douser and he "found" water at the same three locations as my cousin did three years ago. (not knowing where cousin doused) The strongest location was about 100 feet from the house and we went 405 feet and hit nothing but dust all the way down ($2000 hole). The second site involved removing a large blue spruce and taking down some power/telephone lines. This site was between the house and the first site. We hit water at 205' (12 GPM) but the well had to be screened. Choice was go with what we had and pay the additional 2400 to screen well or try a new hole. We went with what we knew we had and screened it.
Bottom line was (as explained to me by those who drill) the lay of the land is mostly responsible for a reserve of water available to use as a well. Typically, your luck on the slope of/or near the top of a hill or ridge will be better for finding water. (just the opposite of what I thought) The pressure under the surface that is responsible for forming the hill or ridge (upward pressure on the rock) is also the pressure that will ultimately break/crack the rock layer and allow water to pool.
The problem in my area was the rock was broken too much (too fine) and like digging a hole in the sand, the sides of the well would calapse if not supported.
Well has been connected to the farm now for three weeks. Water has a good taste and has a PH of 7.1.
TresCrows
Elite Member
Ed, opinions are great and I totally agree with you but a question was asked as science has answered with FACT--not opinion--repeatable and verifiable fact.
Dave, evolution and geology and I know where you are going with your statement--Creation scinece- which is not science at all since it is biased and sets out to proove a view point that is not even totally accepted within the Christian community or other faiths for that matter. Yes, evolution is demonstrateable and while the scientific method used to demonstrate it is not the same as mixing chemicals in a lab it is nonetheless legitimate and accepted by the scientific community. Just cuz some preacher in Mississippi takes offense and thumps the Good Book is of no concern to scientist. Geology, has a rock record--hey--Charles Lyell--The present is the key to the past. Evolution has been verified and can be studied and now that the DNA book for all life has been opened and it is being rapidly decoded the similarity of an amoeba DNA, to a earthworm to a frog to a mammal to a human has such similarity that only a blind person would continue to deny it. Ignorance enslaves the mind, knowledge is power. Yeah, I am a meanie aren't I? That is OK, it is all in Love. Maybe someone should use a ougi board (sp) for the stock market, after all in one experiment a chicken out performed broker, but that is to be expected. J
Dave, evolution and geology and I know where you are going with your statement--Creation scinece- which is not science at all since it is biased and sets out to proove a view point that is not even totally accepted within the Christian community or other faiths for that matter. Yes, evolution is demonstrateable and while the scientific method used to demonstrate it is not the same as mixing chemicals in a lab it is nonetheless legitimate and accepted by the scientific community. Just cuz some preacher in Mississippi takes offense and thumps the Good Book is of no concern to scientist. Geology, has a rock record--hey--Charles Lyell--The present is the key to the past. Evolution has been verified and can be studied and now that the DNA book for all life has been opened and it is being rapidly decoded the similarity of an amoeba DNA, to a earthworm to a frog to a mammal to a human has such similarity that only a blind person would continue to deny it. Ignorance enslaves the mind, knowledge is power. Yeah, I am a meanie aren't I? That is OK, it is all in Love. Maybe someone should use a ougi board (sp) for the stock market, after all in one experiment a chicken out performed broker, but that is to be expected. J
EdKing
Platinum Member
What I meant by opinion, is your opinion that if science can't prove something, then it can't exist. I am a firm believer in evolution, and the scientific process. I am also a believer in the opinion that there are things out there that science can't prove, but they do exist.
DVerbarg
Platinum Member
Ed,
You said it so well and so short <font color=blue>if science can't prove something, then it can't exist....there are things out there that science can't prove, but they do exist.</font color=blue>
You said it so well and so short <font color=blue>if science can't prove something, then it can't exist....there are things out there that science can't prove, but they do exist.</font color=blue>
TresCrows
Elite Member
Ed, I have no dissagreement with your statement. Some things are beyond science and the scientific method of investigation. However, water witching really is not one of them because it has been investigated and shown to be of no value. Some things in life we have to make a leap of faith. I think what infuriates so many people with science is that it does not prove to them what they want to believe and then other things it does not even seek to render a conclusion, to seek to prove a point would be poor method because already bias has entered the equation. I doubt that science will ever prove factually a justification for my belief based on faith in God, yet I do not question his existence. Anyone who tries to take the Bible or the Koran or any other of our holy books and then tries to conduct scientific experiments, for example, to prove them out is in for an infuriating and exasparating time--not from me but from themselves ultimately. Bowing out of this one before y'all all drop me and my crows down a well. J
Slamfire
Veteran Member
The local "legend" marked two underground streams on my place one running at right angles to the other. He said there was water at 25 feet, 68 feet, 121 feet and 157 feet. We marked the intersection of the two streams with a stake, and I made sure the well driller's drill was centered on it. There was water at 25 feet which marked the top of the rock underlying the soil. When the well reached 300 feet without any more water, I had them blow the hole down and measure the height the water reached, that was 80 feet. I can pump water for 45 minutes before the well runs dry. So much for dowsers, or at least the one I got. The well driller said there was a reason they don't charge, that way there is no recourse when they are wrong.
Heres my problem, I don't need a dowser since I have the water coming up out of the ground, it makes a puddle about 4' by 5' and runs back down in the ground, its not standing, it is flowing. What is the best way to contain this water and use it (watering the horses, irrigation etc.). It is in the pasture with my 4 horses about 400 ft from the House. House has city water so I don't need it for that.
MarkV
Super Member
- Joined
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- Cedartown, Ga and N. Ga mountains
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- 1998 Kubota B21, 2005 Kubota L39
Sounds like a great place to dig a pond.
MarkV
MarkV
EdKing
Platinum Member
Put in a cistern to hold the water. Start where the water is comming out of the ground and dig a trench back, following the flow of the water, about 10 feet. Put in black perforated pipe with a screen cap on the end in this trench. Put a tank (concrete or plastic work well, you can even build one out of brick, just make sure you seal it well, use as large a tank as you would like to have reserve water) in at the down hill end of the black pipe, you will need to dig a hole large enough for the tank. Connect the black pipe with the tank, as near the top as posible, put another pipe coming out the top of the tank for overflow. Put your out flow pipe about 4 to 6 inches from the bottom, use 1 inch ABS, once again with a screen cap, and run this line to where you want to access the water. You want to bury the outflow about 6 to 12 inches below the frost line. If you are using a plastic tank, let it fill with water, then backfill the entire setup, including the perforated pipe. Mark where the access hole is on top of the tank, so you can find it to periodically clean the sediment from the bottom of the tank. Set up properly, this type of setup will last as long as the water continues to flow from the ground in that area.
rrw1238
Member
Things change as science learns more. An example is a electric device that medicine shows have been touting since at least the early 1900s. It emits a small electrical shock and helps stop pain. Drs were loosing thier licenses for recommending it as little as 20 years ago. Now the big name medical devices manufactures have started selling them for $1000s. They are ok now as long as they are manufactured by the big companies. My wife was given one a couple of years ago by our HMO. another was a electromagnetic device to treat pain and help bones heal after a fracture. I recently heard that Jery Lewis has one implanted in his back for pain.
Ralph /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Ralph /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
