How Would You Fix This Bridge?

[jyoutz]

OK, you asked for suggestions. Here goes:
That's a nice project. BTW, & congratulations on getting 100+ years on the original.
Concrete box culverts are very nice, but spendy. But do that if you can afford it. Steel culvert is way less expensive, & 100 years is reasonable. Steel culvert quality varies a lot. Some of the better is heavier gauge and coated.

Just guessing based on our area, these 4 items listed below on a rural job, on a private road to private land could cost as little as $5K each or as much as twice that. Allow the same $5K for overruns and so you are at $25K. min. here. Not bad compared to $50K, and frankly the $50K you were originally estimated too far isn't out of line if this road sees tonnage or has to be rated in any special way - for fire trucks for example.

1. I would call around and see if I could get an older professional civil engineer on my side. His stamp will be needed, and he can design alternatives for some regulations. He has probably dozens of this type repair & has stream data and local knowledge.

2. Ask around to see if anyone sleeves old culverts. A 5 foot sleeving for existing 6 foot pipe can be considered a temporary internal diversion since it prevents the construction muck from being carried downstreanm - which from your photos is what is happening with the undermining going on right now. The civil engineer will need to draw up plans for the DEP so that the sleeving is an acceptable temporary bypass.

3. Expect to put in a pair of new six foot culverts - one on each side of the central sleeved pipe...or whatever fits. It's good practice to ALWAYS put in two or more same size culverts side by side - each one sized for full flow. Climate change means local flooding, so an even better idea is to have one or more offset above the others in case of flood debris plugging the lowers. This is the time to do this job because most local codes haven't changed as much as the climate will....yet.

4. Plan for a large excavator. Looks like a one day job but allow for two. The excavator should already have knowledge/permits for working around power lines.
Tell him he may need to do some compaction around and between culverts. He will know that anyway..
You could make back some of your cost if the culverts displace enough decent dirt to avoid having to bring in fill. But you won't know that until you dig.

5. Put the guard rails back to code.

Good luck,
rScotty

I will add that if you go the twin culvert route, then plan a dip in the road at the low point of the crossing. This is to allow for flood overflow when the culverts are at full capacity. It will help to keep the road from washing out.

 

[Snobdds]

You have to be careful working in the water. A local RV park, put a bridge over a 20-year event, high water slough on their property. The owner got fined $50K. The contractor who installed it got $50K and a five year ban from bidding public works projects. The engineer who designed and sealed the project got $50k against a $10k fee, and a five year probation status on his license. Now this is the Salmon River, which has five species which are critically endangered, endangered, or critical. So, the environmental folks were pretty upset.

All that fear mongering and failed to tell how all these people got it wrong.

Context would be more helpful that fear mongering.

 

[GrandpaSmurf825]

Railroad cars have age limits, so I suspect most of those available are aged out, not damaged.

For example:

AI Overview

Railroad tank cars in general interchange service must generally be replaced or retired at 50 years of age. Cars built before July 1, 1974, were limited to 40 years, while newer cars or those with approved rebuilds (AAR Rule 88) can operate up to 50 years, with some specialized designs allowed to reach 65 year

I've not looked into buying a used tank car so I don't know what is being offered. However I have been around/worked numerous derailments and observed plenty of incidents in rail yards. Derailments are almost a guarantee they won't ever be used in rail service again. I'm not talking about a derailment where they just went on the ground during a switching move at low speed. I'm referring to a mainline derailment that leaves many times cars on their sides or even piled up. These cars won't ever be used again. If the contracted scrapper wants to salvage the tanks they can. All the wheels, axles, truck frames, etc. are made unusable. Axles cut in half, wheels with the center cut out, and frames cut in half etc. They won't risk the liability.
Yard incidents are more often damage from sideswipes. A cut parked to close to a switch and the adjacent track movement strikes them. In those situations if there is only damage to grab irons, steps, ladders, and nothing to the actual body then it will normally be repaired unless they are almost to the end of their life. If the damage is more severe like a caved in area on a tank car there is little chance it will be repaired. Structural integrity has to be maintained along with being able to be certified for all sorts of liquids. If there is any doubt whether these standards can be met they are scrapped. The tank is after all also the frame.

I suspect AI has never been in a rail yard or let alone out on the main line of any Class 1 railroad. This is my overview after spending 27 years out on the tracks. No AI needed.

You can date any type railcar in use. There is a placard of sorts that gives the date manufactured, and if it's ever been rebuilt that date also listed.

 

[Little Red Tractor]

Here is a resource from your neighboring state that might be helpful: https://extapps.dec.ny.gov/docs/lands_forests_pdf/forestrybmp.pdf. It is often used by loggers who have to make stream crossings. Since I was once a member of what was (quite accurately) called the "dirt police," I have a history with such things.

I'm guessing that is what we would call a "(t)class" stream up here, meaning that trout can propagate in it. That does add a ton of regulations. You might check and see what sort of exemptions may exist within the law for emergency repairs. If the bridge suddenly--like after the next major storm--becomes impassible for emergency vehicles, what can be done to restore that access quickly?

As a caution, we have family members who owned property in the northern half of PA and had a major battle with one of the utility companies. Be cautious if you do approach them for any help.

 

[MattB4]

The stream (Navajo Creek) averages around 8' wide and 1 - 2' deep. The flow varies with rainfall. During high water events, the 6' pipe runs full.

What you can't see in the picture is, the bridge is sloped upward toward the left of the picture. The right side is only 2' above stream level. When the pipe obstructs the flow, the water backs up and flows over the roadway on the low (right) side. This acts as a "safety valve" and is likely why the bridge has lasted so long.

The most severe event happened during Hurricane Ivan in 2004:

View attachment 5363056
View attachment 5363057

If these types of floods can happen than any bridge that has a deck placed on abutments would be wrecked quickly. Just looking at your flood pictures a properly designed and engineered fix is going to be a costly endeavor and likely out of reach for a private party.

Unfortunately it sounds like they will not simply allow the old culvert to be pulled out and a new replacement made. The joy of new regulations.

 

[jaybo77862]

Is the stream a trout stream? I know some folks that got a grant from the State to stabilize the area around the stream. It was probably 40 years ago so I don't remember who funded the grant; may have been the Fish Commission or the old DER. Might be worth asking about.

 

[kneedeep]

Get a lawyer, find a contractor and force everyone that has property and must use the road for access to pay their equal share to repair bridge to county standards if necessary through the courts. That bridge is doomed with the next heavy rain.
Good luck with the out of towners.

 

[LouNY]

Get a lawyer, find a contractor and force everyone that has property and must use the road for access to pay their equal share to repair bridge to county standards if necessary through the courts. That bridge is doomed with the next heavy rain.
Good luck with the out of towners.

Damn, glad I don't live any were near you. Any time a shyster and a judge and DEC get involved everyone else is going to get screwed.

 

[bdhsfz6]

Is the stream a trout stream? I know some folks that got a grant from the State to stabilize the area around the stream. It was probably 40 years ago so I don't remember who funded the grant; may have been the Fish Commission or the old DER. Might be worth asking about.

Not a Trout stream, but we do get some nice Perch & Crappies.

 

[bdhsfz6]

Get a lawyer, find a contractor and force everyone that has property and must use the road for access to pay their equal share to repair bridge to county standards if necessary through the courts. That bridge is doomed with the next heavy rain.
Good luck with the out of towners.

We've tried this several times in he past. In this part of the state, cases like this are relegated to small claims court. We've taken several property owners there and they simply plead poverty. In every case, the judge rules in their favor and dismisses the case. Our lawyer tells us this is quite common in the county and there isn't much we can do.

Our only option is to put a lien against each individual property so the money can be recouped after a sale. Nothing has sold here in 20 years. The money recovered from a single sale would be insignificant anyway.

 

[chim]

Dump concrete into the big cracks?

 

[inchman]

OK, I think I have the perfect solution for you. Look for "fork lift ramps" for sale near you. These are used to drive forklifts up and down loading docks to the ground level. They often can be had used for fairly cheap. Many can hold over 10 tons. Depending on which one you get, you might need to chop off the bend end section. But once you do, just lay it on the ground over the road. There is NO modifications to the road, stream, or other land required. Just make sure it's big enough for a firetruck to get over (width wise.) As the actual capacity is irrelevant since the entire unit is supported by the road. Then get a beer and call it a day!

Note- this also allows you to move it in the future if you need to dump fill or gravel in the road and put it back over it.

 

[two-socks]

Cheapest fix would be 1) fix the water diversion to drain back to the pipe, then 2) excavate a rectangular area down to top of pipe (roughly outside where you have the buckets placed) and backfill and compact with cement stabilized base or some similar for your area. Would involve only handwork in the creek so shouldn't trigger any enviro concerns since you're doing it for maintenance purposes.

 

[jyoutz]

Dump concrete into the big cracks?

How will that help the deteriorating culvert?

 

[bdhsfz6]

Dump concrete into the big cracks?

We have been digging out those cracks and filling with concrete for many years. I'm, sure those individual "chunks" of concrete are what has held the bridge together.

 

[Cub 7275]

$50k sounds like a lot of money but everything costs money now. Last Fall I had a new furnace/AC put in the house and it was $10k.

Good luck and keep us updated.

Damn, glad I don't live any were near you. Any time a shyster and a judge and DEC get involved everyone else is going to get screwed.

A relative in New York state has a similar situation with a 70 year old bridge which is essentially a 3 sided culvert with wings. The undercutting is getting pretty bad. They were told replacement could be anywhere between $50K to $250K depending on what the required studies found. The small house accessed by the bridge is from the 1800's. If they want to replace the house they were told they'd have to bring the culvert up to current codes which means it has to support a fire truck.

Hope it works out for the OP.

 

[bdhsfz6]

OK, I think I have the perfect solution for you. Look for "fork lift ramps" for sale near you. These are used to drive forklifts up and down loading docks to the ground level. They often can be had used for fairly cheap. Many can hold over 10 tons. Depending on which one you get, you might need to chop off the bend end section. But once you do, just lay it on the ground over the road. There is NO modifications to the road, stream, or other land required. Just make sure it's big enough for a firetruck to get over (width wise.) As the actual capacity is irrelevant since the entire unit is supported by the road. Then get a beer and call it a day!

Note- this also allows you to move it in the future if you need to dump fill or gravel in the road and put it back over it.

A good idea, but I would be concerned about the load capacity. I just had 10, 23 ton tri axle loads of gravel delivered yesterday, so the capacity needs to be at least 30 tons.

The bridge handled the load very well BTW with no visible damage.

 

[bdhsfz6]

Cheapest fix would be 1) fix the water diversion to drain back to the pipe, then 2) excavate a rectangular area down to top of pipe (roughly outside where you have the buckets placed) and backfill and compact with cement stabilized base or some similar for your area. Would involve only handwork in the creek so shouldn't trigger any enviro concerns since you're doing it for maintenance purposes.

This is exactly what we are considering now. We would have to do it in sections though, so traffic isn't blocked for extended periods.

 

[ruffdog]

Get a lawyer, find a contractor and force everyone that has property and must use the road for access to pay their equal share to repair bridge to county standards if necessary through the courts. That bridge is doomed with the next heavy rain.
Good luck with the out of towners.

I'm just wondering how they would determine who pays what? Property value? Acreage?

 

[tomplum]

It sounds like the county has been brought in on this. About 10 years ago, our DFW came to the door and asked to inspect our (private) road culvert. Apparently, they would have funded a new road bridge if fish came this far upstream. No fish found.

If this is an important habitat for fish, maybe there is help to be found from the state or even private groups. Or maybe this improvement can be put on the books and paid over 15 or 20 years. I'd have to say that 50K to replace that has long past.