Question on power pole and communication wires

[Sigarms]

When the power company needs to move or replace a pole and there is communication wire of some sort on that pole, how does the power company not know who has wire running off their power pole?

Long story at the new home we're renovating.

What the power company is telling me is that they may have to replace a pole, but they can't move the communication wire that isn't theirs off the old pole and put it on the new pole, so we'd have two power poles standing side by side.

I'm dealing with an engineer who seems like a nice guy, but at the end of the day, he really doesn't care about this issue.

I asked him that knowing they're the large power company that it only makes sense that they charge others to run communication wire on their poles, and he said yes, they do. Then ask him if they receive payment for use of their poles, why they wouldn't know who owns the communication wire? Basically not his department.

We've called pretty much everyone we can think of, and found one, Spectrum. They removed two wires, but we still have two unknown wires to deal with. Hoping to find out who on our end, but I have to plan worse case scenario.

Here is the kicker... I ask this engineer what happens if a car comes in off the road and takes the current power pole down (it's old and ugly, and honestly may not pass their "integrity set of criteria anyways). Apparently they will put in a new pole, put the power lines on that pole, but leave any wires that aren't their laying on the ground, and who ever wire it is will have to place their wires on the new pole. Perhaps it's just me, but this is kind of defying any common sense here.

 

[ronjhall]

Similar at my place. Local power company put in new poles and power lines about 15 years ago. It took Comcast almost a year to move their cables and amplifier to new pole. Today the old pole from the 1930’s is still standing. Lucky for me it is hidden behind a pine tree. According to power company. It’s Comcast (Xfinity) responsibility to remove old pole.

 

[mrmikey]

What if the comm line were to break from a "limb" falling on it?

Somebody would show up, or you'd know it's an abandoned line...

LOL, I was thinking the same thing, wait ''till the new pole is up and then the work in the area must have caused the limb to fall.

 

[EscapedSuburbia]

Let's say a limb falls on the line and nobody shows up so you assume it's abandoned... Now what? Are you going to cut down the pole?

At our last place there was a box for phone lines that was always in the way for mowing and blocked a good path for me to tow trailers into the back yard. I finally ripped it out, stuffed the wires into the hole, and put a plastic cover over the hole at ground level. Nobody ever showed up to complain. But cutting down a pole might be a bigger deal if someone ends up caring.

 

[paulsharvey]

Ok, so, the joint user generally does pay to attach to the power companies poles. What you are describing is very very common, power company does storm hardening or just replaces the pole, they "top" the pole below their lowest line (generally the static ground), and dont touch the telecom.

Its for a couple reasons; ATT, its a union thing, something with their contract, only their union guys can do it. Although last year when they went on strike, ATTs contractors did aerial attachments, and we hoped ATT would change the rules, and nuke the union, and contract it out.

The telecom is generally notified of the pole transfer, but its not a priority, they will get to it eventually, over the coarse if the next couple years. FPL has started trying a new tactic, they "claim" that if a telecom doesnt transfer in a timely manner, the "stub" pole becomes the telecoms. The issue is, you can't make another company take ownership of something, just cause you dont want it anymore.

 

[paulsharvey]

So, I kinda do understand what you say about "defies common sense", on one hand, as they already have a bucket truck and line men their; but your missing one part, the Why? Why would the power company do something with another companies line? Its not theirs, and they have no reason to do anything with it.

Some utility companies will do joint builds, where one places multiple conduits, and another company pays for the extra conduit to be placed by the first company, since they are already there. I will tell you, this is the exception, not the norm. Most utility companies have 1-4 standing service contractors, that they can pay, write work orders upto a pre-set value, ect; but they can't just pay another contractor.

On the joint use, stub poles, the bad part, once the telecom relocates in a couple years, it may take a couple more years before the power company comes to yank the old pole.

 

[paulsharvey]

When the power company needs to move or replace a pole and there is communication wire of some sort on that pole, how does the power company not know who has wire running off their power pole?

Long story at the new home we're renovating.

What the power company is telling me is that they may have to replace a pole, but they can't move the communication wire that isn't theirs off the old pole and put it on the new pole, so we'd have two power poles standing side by side.

I'm dealing with an engineer who seems like a nice guy, but at the end of the day, he really doesn't care about this issue.

I asked him that knowing they're the large power company that it only makes sense that they charge others to run communication wire on their poles, and he said yes, they do. Then ask him if they receive payment for use of their poles, why they wouldn't know who owns the communication wire? Basically not his department.

We've called pretty much everyone we can think of, and found one, Spectrum. They removed two wires, but we still have two unknown wires to deal with. Hoping to find out who on our end, but I have to plan worse case scenario.

Here is the kicker... I ask this engineer what happens if a car comes in off the road and takes the current power pole down (it's old and ugly, and honestly may not pass their "integrity set of criteria anyways). Apparently they will put in a new pole, put the power lines on that pole, but leave any wires that aren't their laying on the ground, and who ever wire it is will have to place their wires on the new pole. Perhaps it's just me, but this is kind of defying any common sense here.

So, maybe I missed the main point, but what is the concern? Are you needing the utilities relocated to build a driveway or develop something in the ROW/easement? If so, call a 811 Dig Ticket, it will list all utilities in the area on your "positive response", and you can then contact them if the other two lines are an actual problem.

 

[Runner]

In my city, there is "Right Of Way" manager who exists to ensure that utilities follow City rules regarding placement of utilities in the ROW. They may have rules regarding things like this, i.e., not allowing 10 utility poles to remain where one can do the job. If there is such a person in your municipality, it might be worth giving them a call.

In my case, it was a company burying fiber optic cable in the ROW in front of my house. The install company left a big mess (holes in the ground, piles of dirt and they accidentally ran their boring machine through my water meter pit and filled it up with mud). One call to the ROW manager and they had to come back and clean it all up.

 

[EddieWalker]

How far up the pole are the lines in question? If nobody else will remove them, why not do it yourself? Rent a lift and do it when nobody is looking. Then after the new pole is installed, put them back on the pole.

 

[John0829]

The power company replaced our pole a few years ago and they moved the phone line and boxes over to the new pole even though I knew it was no longer used and ASKED them to NOT move it. I wanted it cut so I could get it out of the trees.

Guess it is different rules for different places

 

[ponytug]

When the power company needs to move or replace a pole and there is communication wire of some sort on that pole, how does the power company not know who has wire running off their power pole?

Long story at the new home we're renovating.

What the power company is telling me is that they may have to replace a pole, but they can't move the communication wire that isn't theirs off the old pole and put it on the new pole, so we'd have two power poles standing side by side.

I'm dealing with an engineer who seems like a nice guy, but at the end of the day, he really doesn't care about this issue.

I asked him that knowing they're the large power company that it only makes sense that they charge others to run communication wire on their poles, and he said yes, they do. Then ask him if they receive payment for use of their poles, why they wouldn't know who owns the communication wire? Basically not his department.

We've called pretty much everyone we can think of, and found one, Spectrum. They removed two wires, but we still have two unknown wires to deal with. Hoping to find out who on our end, but I have to plan worse case scenario.

Here is the kicker... I ask this engineer what happens if a car comes in off the road and takes the current power pole down (it's old and ugly, and honestly may not pass their "integrity set of criteria anyways). Apparently they will put in a new pole, put the power lines on that pole, but leave any wires that aren't their laying on the ground, and who ever wire it is will have to place their wires on the new pole. Perhaps it's just me, but this is kind of defying any common sense here.

Totally typical. I would observe that this happens in lots of other areas. Contractor A working on X won't touch item Y, because it isn't their expertise, so you need to get contractor B to deal with Y.

We recently had a new power pole installed on our distribution line. Same experience as yours. The old, decrepit, leaning pole is still there holding up almost a dozen telco wires, of which two are functional. AT&T has been avoiding maintenance on these lines for decades, so the wires will probably stay there until they fall off of the pole of their own accord. When our phone lines dropped, the AT&T linesman grabbed a hold of the wires, yanked them off the nearest pole and left. Somebody else had to clear the dropped wires out of the pasture, and coil them up neatly at the next pole, where they stayed for years. (We dropped AT&T for their inability to maintain a dial tone, or the required 24 hour service during an outage. No love lost there.)

It happens to me all the time. Solar guys don't touch roofing issues, roofers don't touch solar systems, and adding a battery to a solar system or expanding one is an exercise in finger pointing. I'm trying to get someone to install a minisplit heat pump for water heating, and the contractor count is sitting at three; plumber, electrician (because the circuit isn't exactly where the plumber wants it now), and an HVAC person to deal with the line set, plus, of course, three permits, because this isn't seen as one job. The labor cost is at 3x the retail price of the water heater...

@Sigarms my advice is to let them leave the old pole, wait for the next storm to knock the wires off and then lean on the telco crew to move the wires, and pull the pole. There will be a pole # on the pole to help you guide the telco to the right abandoned pole.

All the best,

Peter

 

[anomad]

When the power company needs to move or replace a pole and there is communication wire of some sort on that pole, how does the power company not know who has wire running off their power pole?

Long story at the new home we're renovating.

What the power company is telling me is that they may have to replace a pole, but they can't move the communication wire that isn't theirs off the old pole and put it on the new pole, so we'd have two power poles standing side by side.

I'm dealing with an engineer who seems like a nice guy, but at the end of the day, he really doesn't care about this issue.

I asked him that knowing they're the large power company that it only makes sense that they charge others to run communication wire on their poles, and he said yes, they do. Then ask him if they receive payment for use of their poles, why they wouldn't know who owns the communication wire? Basically not his department.

We've called pretty much everyone we can think of, and found one, Spectrum. They removed two wires, but we still have two unknown wires to deal with. Hoping to find out who on our end, but I have to plan worse case scenario.

Here is the kicker... I ask this engineer what happens if a car comes in off the road and takes the current power pole down (it's old and ugly, and honestly may not pass their "integrity set of criteria anyways). Apparently they will put in a new pole, put the power lines on that pole, but leave any wires that aren't their laying on the ground, and who ever wire it is will have to place their wires on the new pole. Perhaps it's just me, but this is kind of defying any common sense here.

I'm sure you are dealing with Duke like me. We had a pole replaced last summer and underground service trenched to a remodel. It was a huge project due to the location. They actually dug a road in there put down mats for the big trucks and the whole 9 yards. None of it made sense, all phases of the project were completed by different subcontractors that were just assigned one task.

They just put up a new pole with power only and left the old one. So we have two poles to stare at out the kitchen. The pole that the new underground service was in my hay field. They cut it down and just left it. I used it to make a foot bridge with other wood I had laying around.

 

[bdhsfz6]

As a retired utility engineer, I can tell you the number of possible scenario's here is almost infinite. There is no standard, one size fits all solution and problems like this are handled differently in different locations. If I had a nickel for every similar $hit fight I was involved with, I could have retired 10 years earlier.

Have you tried contacting your state public utility commission? They can sometimes exert pressure on the individual companies involved.

If you can post a few pics of the poles & wiring, including close ups, and the pole numbers, someone may be able to offer better advice.

I will say this, DO NOT handle or cut any wiring until you're sure no hazardous voltages are present! You also won't be the most popular person if your actions cause a neighborhood cable TV, internet or telephone outage. In those cases, you could be liable for damages.

 

[grsthegreat]

I was at a job where an old power pole was in middle of driveway on new house. Blocked driveway. Owner said its been that way for nearly a year since house was built from lot split. Power was moved to new pole but zipply (verizon) had not moved phone lines. All zipply told owners is if they touch pole, they will be arrested and sued. They will get to it. I told them to contact public utility commission and file formal complaint….me id cut it down and coil up or drive over wire

 

[paulsharvey]

I was at a job where an old power pole was in middle of driveway on new house. Blocked driveway. Owner said its been that way for nearly a year since house was built from lot split. Power was moved to new pole but zipply (verizon) had not moved phone lines. All zipply told owners is if they touch pole, they will be arrested and sued. They will get to it. I told them to contact public utility commission and file formal complaint….me id cut it down and coil up or drive over wire

We have it happen pretty often, as far as a utility pole being in a new driveway. It is generally the responsibility of the one wanting it moved to pay for the relocation. The power pole was their first, its public right of way, and they arent less entitled then some random developer. Joint users are often the hold up, but knowing Who to contact is the first step if our OP Needs the pole moved.

Really, if this needs moved, enter a free 811 dig ticket; check your positive response; it lists every utility company within about 500 ft of the dig ticket location, and contact them. Know that the number listed likely is Not the guy to deal with, but you have the utility owner's name, and reach out to them directly.

 

[Sigarms]

So, maybe I missed the main point, but what is the concern? Are you needing the utilities relocated to build a driveway or develop something in the ROW/easement? If so, call a 811 Dig Ticket, it will list all utilities in the area on your "positive response", and you can then contact them if the other two lines are an actual problem.

The concern is the existing pole looks like total crap. It's right by house not too far away from the driveway. Location could be improved immensely by moving the pole no more than 10 yards along the line it's holding.

811 was called. Actually no, it won't list all the utilities.

 

[Sigarms]

I'm sure you are dealing with Duke like me. We had a pole replaced last summer and underground service trenched to a remodel. It was a huge project due to the location. They actually dug a road in there put down mats for the big trucks and the whole 9 yards. None of it made sense, all phases of the project were completed by different subcontractors that were just assigned one task.

Yes, it's Duke Power.

Potentially going underground as the electrical in the remodeled house has complete new panel and wiring.

As noted, the existing pole is butt frick old and ugly. Sorry, when you're sinking a pretty penny to update the house and electrical, if possible, if we could do something with the pole, great.

However, when the engineer told me that they may put a pole right next to the existing pole, and leave the old pole there, that defies common sense, particularly when they're charging me money for the work.

 

[Sigarms]

It is generally the responsibility of the one wanting it moved to pay for the relocation. The power pole was their first, its public right of way, and they arent less entitled then some random developer. Joint users are often the hold up, but knowing Who to contact is the first step if our OP Needs the pole moved.

End of the day, I don't care if it's moved (nice if they could, but not overly important.

The issue we're tried 5 communications companies and at this point, only spectrum has come forward to claim one wire.

What defies common sense is the power company does not allow any tom dick and harry to run wire on their poles. The power company will charge a third party to use their power poles. If the power company is charging for use of their poles, the power company KNOWS who's paying them. This is what defies common sense.

As noted, if a car came in and took the one pole out, the power company would put up a new pole and transfer their own wire, but the wire of the third parties would still be laying on the ground, pretty much on our driveway. That is something else that defies common sense IMO.

 

[anomad]

Yes, it's Duke Power.

Potentially going underground as the electrical in the remodeled house has complete new panel and wiring.

As noted, the existing pole is butt frick old and ugly. Sorry, when you're sinking a pretty penny to update the house and electrical, if possible, if we could do something with the pole, great.

However, when the engineer told me that they may put a pole right next to the existing pole, and leave the old pole there, that defies common sense, particularly when they're charging me money for the work.

Go underground if possible. Our remodel was considered "new construction" since they had pulled the meter a years ago. Even though the house if from the 50s. So they picked up the tab. That might give you an angle to look into?

I argued to just go off grid from the start of the remodel and not inconvenience the government by pulling permits etc.. Others involved didn't share my enthusiasm for being unconventional.

 

[paulsharvey]

Most big corps arent really much different than goverment, many branches, each that is focused on their area, and no idea what the rest of the organization is doing.

In my part of the world, most power companies use Alpine to permit joint users, audit attachments, ect.

Last company i worked for, we got hired to do a joint use pole audit. The telecom claimed they were being charged for attachments they didnt have. We found they where attached to roughly 2x the number of poles the small power co-op was charging for.



But, back to the issue; now a days, many telecoms tag their lines. In my area, its going to be mostly ATT, Comcast, Windstream, Cox, or Unitifiber, but we have added new aerial fiber with Verofiber a few years ago, going to schools/cell towers. The older aerial attachments arent normally tagged, but if you follow the line to a pole drop, they are often labeled on the U-guard, the goes down the pole.

If older, the names often have changed, and you almost need to be in the utility business to know that "Alltel" turned to Windstream, which is ran as Kinetic, but owned by Unitifiber. Continental Cablevision=Comcast, Bellsouth=AT&T, Level3=Lumen, ect.

We also have several areas that have old dead coax from a failed cable TV provider, that was never removed. Any time we have actual issues with that, (falling across road or similar), the power co-op that owns the poles will remove the dead line, where the issue is.