20A Shop Outlets for Charging

[Runner]

Me. Usually not worth arguing with them, unless you’re already at final inspection, and won’t need to deal with them ever again. Either just go along with their stupidity, or undo it after they’re gone and the job is finished. Fighting them on it, even if you’re right, can cause the remainder of your job to go a lot less smoothly.

There are many good inspectors out there, but there are also many with Barney Fife’s desire to throw their weight around, at every opportunity.

A few observations:

Sometimes an inspector may not be biased one way or another, they just may not understand the requirement and are taking their best shot at an interpretation. This is especially true with the electrical code, but is common with all of them. My city (Kansas City, MO) has had two kinds of inspectors. In the "old days" all inspectors were ex-contractors, electricians inspected electrical, plumbers inspected plumbing, etc. After the Hyatt Regency disaster (1982 ?) they completely re-vamped the permits/inspections system. Up until that time, codes was a division of Public Works and they did things as mentioned above.

After that time, in interest of improving safety and professionalism, they created a new Codes Administration Department. They kept some of the old-line inspectors and plans examiners, but also brought in a new staff of architecture and engineering graduates to do the jobs of people who were fired. The old guys knew "everything" about their given trade, but had a tendency to require things to be done "their way" and specialized in their own trade.

The young guys (without intimate knowledge of any particular discipline) learned the codes from the ground up, had to perform multi-disciplinary inspections/reviews, and had to go "by the book" because they didn't have any other experience to go by.

Building departments spend huge amounts of time reviewing individual situations and generating interpretations to deal with them. At least in this city, there are people that spend almost all of their time making interpretations and reviewing individual situations for "code modifications".

If you are reading something in the code and the inspector seems to be at odds with what it says, it may be worthwhile to talk to their supervisor, or whomever in the department is in charge of making interpretations.

Most inspectors aren't really trying to be a jerk (some are.....), they are just trying to cover their azz and make sure they are getting things right. In my city, supervisors are doing spot-checks on inspectors and plan examiners to make sure they are not missing things or misinterpreting requirements.

 

[WinterDeere]

A few observations:

Good post, but I suspect your experience dealing with city inspections of a commercial building might be a lot different than homeowners dealing with rural township inspectors!

 

[JJT]

I am wondering if he is requiring two dedicated 20a outlets, each on it's own breaker. Does a single EV draw more than 10A? If so, it seems that it would require separate 20A circuits. Not two 20A outlets on the same breaker.

I have 50 amp welding plugs in both garages. These are the ones that get used to charge our son's EV. If he plugs into a 20A circuit the charge time is excessive. 50A easily gets to full charge in a few hours, 20A doesn't get him to full charge over night. Of course he waits until he's below 10% before even thinking about charging....... I will never own an EV.

 

[Runner]

Good post, but I suspect your experience dealing with city inspections of a commercial building might be a lot different than homeowners dealing with rural township inspectors!

Very true, a lot of the smaller municipalities are still doing things the old way. Some of them have the dog catcher doing inspections in his spare time....

 

[murphy1244]

Mine is single 30 amp Edison main with knife switch.

The sub-panel is inside and has 2 Edison Fuses…

A 15 amp light circuit and a 20 amp outlet circuit.

3 bedroom, 1 bath at 1100 square feet single family…

Gas gravity central heat, gas hot water, gas stove and gas dryer…

Over 100 years in service… it least I don’t have those pesky Federal Pacific Breakers that ever home inspector writes up.

I did put in Safety Fuses so my renters wouldn’t be confused should a fuse need to be replaced.

View attachment 4799147

I have never seen 20 amp outlets on a house that old and most have one or two outlets per room. How many times I went to replace a service that has 3 or more taps on a 60 amp box,

 

[ultrarunner]

My last service upgrade and adding a house meter had 5 inspectors show up…

All I could say is I’m honored… (Neighbor approached later asking why 3 city cars at my place?)

It was the senior inspector with 4 new hires… each of the 4 instructed to silently evaluate my work and then they huddled.

Turned out to be a good example of the variations in inspectors…

I passed but 2 of the 5 had noted corrections which would be a fail.

The senior inspector stepped in and said a service upgrade is not the same as new construction…

Older code compliant unmolested work is grandfathered… the young lady inspector had the most corrections… in essence she was looking for a new build to the current code…

I thanked everyone for coming out as my green inspection sticker was applied…

 

[WinterDeere]

I had one inspector tell me that once you touch anything, then everything had to be upgraded to current code. The scope seems to be a gray area.

 

[grsthegreat]

I had one inspector tell me that once you touch anything, then everything had to be upgraded to current code. The scope seems to be a gray area.

That would be nearly impossible. Imagine trying to bring a 50 year old house up to current codes.heck, some old houses only have 2 , 2prong outlets per room and 1 circuit in kitchen. You’d have to rewire every house by just needing to replace an outlet.

 

[WinterDeere]

Imagine trying to bring a 50 year old house up to current codes.

My house was already 240 years old, when that 50 year old house was built.

 

[ultrarunner]

I had one inspector tell me that once you touch anything, then everything had to be upgraded to current code. The scope seems to be a gray area.

There you go… a hear inspectors are often leary of owner-builders because unlike a contractor that needs to get in and out a homeowner may have all the time in the world…

My friend built himself a beautiful home as owner builder but had the building department tied in knots…

My friend is legally deaf late in life and when things with the new inspector started going south regarding his final he brought in the State ADA office to mediate… after 2 years the chief building official said what is it you want…

He said Certificate of Occupancy… same as 2 years ago.

The CBO said remove the downstairs 240 outlet and done.

Home from the start in approved plans included a family room mini kitchen wet bar and this was the hang up…

My friend moved in without certificate of occupancy and said I will die here so the C/O means little to me and I built with cash…

The point of the story is some battles are worth fighting and some not…

 

[grsthegreat]

My house was already 240 years old, when that 50 year old house was built.

Yeiks….i doubt there’s any structure even close to 200 years in my entire state.


I had to look it up

 

[Runner]

My last service upgrade and adding a house meter had 5 inspectors show up…

All I could say is I’m honored… (Neighbor approached later asking why 3 city cars at my place?)

It was the senior inspector with 4 new hires… each of the 4 instructed to silently evaluate my work and then they huddled.

Turned out to be a good example of the variations in inspectors…

I passed but 2 of the 5 had noted corrections which would be a fail.

The senior inspector stepped in and said a service upgrade is not the same as new construction…

Older code compliant unmolested work is grandfathered… the young lady inspector had the most corrections… in essence she was looking for a new build to the current code…

I thanked everyone for coming out as my green inspection sticker was applied…

It takes years for someone to become competent as a building inspector or plan examiner and it's not exactly a job many people dream about having, so getting qualified people hired, trained and up to speed (and retaining qualified people) is extremely difficult.

 

[WinterDeere]

Yeiks….i doubt there’s any structure even close to 200 years in my entire state.

Oldest house in my family, a big farm on Lurgan Rd near daugen and kenmbz, was built 1692. That’s 336 this year!

We sold it in 1995, but it was recognized as the oldest Heritage Farm in PA, prior to that. It was 303 years in the same family, whom married into mine in the 1930’s.

 

[Runner]

There you go… a hear inspectors are often leary of owner-builders because unlike a contractor that needs to get in and out a homeowner may have all the time in the world…

They are leary of "homeowner" projects because many times homeowners don't know what they are doing and have almost no knowledge of code requirements. They wind up taking an inordinate amount of time and effort to get a code-compliant project done.

Of course, there are exceptions, but generally that is the case.

 

[grsthegreat]

I actually helped rewire the old fort Sherman officers quarters in coeur d Alene years ago. The school where the buildings resided quietly tried to demo all 4 remaining buildings to build new office buildings but was caught. As a punishment they were forced to restore a few of the remaining ones. The old officers quarters was lifted off the ground and a proper foundation installed. Then we replumbed and rewired it (even though that never existed before). Than they were forced to add an elevator to meet handicapped requirements….like they had elevators in 1880. Then had to have custom gas/electric lights manufactured.

Came out beautiful, and is the most expensive office space per square foot in entire state of Idaho.

I don’t see how restoring to original means to replace everything with new stuff.

 

[California]

Nobody has mentioned where the inspector and your contractor are good buddies. The first contractor I worked for was semi-he retired, and at that time was my landlord letting me work off the rent during college semester breaks. He always gave fillets of Salmon he had caught, to the inspector. I saw this. He told me it helped get everything passed without hassle. Because the inspector loved Salmon and had come to expect it at every visit. So it wouldn't be a good idea to stop now.

Then years later when I was the contractor putting a second story on our home in town, after the roof tearoff the framing sub called for inspection without telling me. I came home and found a signoff for the foundation reinforcement needed to bear that additional weight. And all the lumber delivered to the front lawn. I looked under the house, nothing had been done. I ran out and caught the inspector just as he was departing. WTF??? He came back and clearly was good buddies with this framer, they both argued with me that adding tons of weight was harmless. This inspection was a pay point and I refused payment until a real inspection signoff on the foundation work plus approval by me - I had a contractor license at the time and felt I would win any court action. Framer sub cried I had just bankrupted him. It was Friday, payday and his employees were watching this conversation. Sorry buddy!

The crew came back Saturday, and the foundation work was signed off Monday afternoon. I felt very lucky that I had intervened before all that weight was stacked up above the first floor. The interior surfaces of the first floor was plaster over button-board and there would have been stress cracks in the plaster then and for years afterward.

 

[ultrarunner]

It takes years for someone to become competent as a building inspector or plan examiner and it's not exactly a job many people dream about having, so getting qualified people hired, trained and up to speed (and retaining qualified people) is extremely difficult.

My last inspection was last month for sewer lateral replacement on a 1922 build where each fixture had individual cast iron to the outside clay pipe meaning everything outside had to be upgraded to pass.

The inspector was 75 with 50 years experience…

His department has 5 inspectors and 4 were out leaving him as the only inspector… he said he retired but was asked to come back…

Had one correction and said send me a picture of the correction and we are good… saying it would take too long for him to come back otherwise as he’s the only one inspecting.

He really knows his stuff and said he has come across wood laterals before.

Plan review is all outsourced and the reviewers are mostly young individuals born in India…

 

[dodge man]

I’m still amazed we have almost no inspections here in my rural area of Illinois. I know banks will require well and septic inspections before a loan just to make sure the house can be occupied. I think any new septic installs get inspected by the county also.

 

[LouNY]

Any "inspector" stating the the NEC requires 120V/20 amp receptacles for charging EV's either is completely incompetent or a liar.
EV charging stations will require a minimum 240V/50 AMP service with some locals requiring GFCI's

 

[Runner]

Plan review is all outsourced and the reviewers are mostly young individuals born in India…

Outsourcing plan review is pretty common in the smaller communities around here too. ICC has a plan review service, but it is insanely expensive so most communities that outsource just use a local code consultant service.

I was going to mention that another reason inspectors and plan examiners sometimes stick to incorrect positions is just plain laziness. A competent inspector/plan examiner will be willing to put in the time and effort to research an issue, i.e., read what the code actually says, check the code interpretation books, check city interpretations and discuss with supervisor, before giving an answer on an issue they aren't certain about, rather than just "shooting from the hip".