20A Shop Outlets for Charging

[ultrarunner]

1959
View attachment 4798659

Mine is knob and tube and soldered… 3 bedroom 1 bath built in 1922

 

[ultrarunner]

Some here know I'm both an old house nut and an electrical engineer, so working on antique electrical systems has been a very big part of my life.

The reality is that yes, several generations survived before modern electric codes, just as they did before penicillan and seatbelts. And just like those two examples, many people were injured or burned their homes to the ground. The most common problem was prior to the establishment of standardized wiring gauges, with so-called "electricians" running wiring that was way too light for the load it was carrying, overheating and starting fires. You can find find plenty of stories about that in the WW1 era in both the US and Europe.

Anyone older than 60 today can remember houses being wired with aluminum in the 1970's, and burning to the ground in the 1980's. And who above 50 doesn't know someone who's been shocked everytime they touched their kitchen range and toaster or refrigerator at the same time? Code is good.


The irony about the wire nut instructions above is that they are wrong, by modern convention. You need to continue twisting until you have the insulated wires wrapped around each other at least two turns, to ensure the nut cannot work loose if tension is put on the wires:

View attachment 4798664


Houses in the neighborhood where I grew up were all built on panels of Edison fuses. Not a damn one of them was properly-sized when we moved into that house. I remember seeing 30A fuses on AWG-14 circuits, because some prior owner got tired of having their 15A fuses blow. Of course the panels are almost never labeled with what size fuse should be in each slot. Those things are truly dangerous, in the hands of most homeowners, and may be responsible for more electrical fires in homes than nearly any other invention, ever.

Mine is single 30 amp Edison main with knife switch.

The sub-panel is inside and has 2 Edison Fuses…

A 15 amp light circuit and a 20 amp outlet circuit.

3 bedroom, 1 bath at 1100 square feet single family…

Gas gravity central heat, gas hot water, gas stove and gas dryer…

Over 100 years in service… it least I don’t have those pesky Federal Pacific Breakers that ever home inspector writes up.

I did put in Safety Fuses so my renters wouldn’t be confused should a fuse need to be replaced.

 

[dodge man]

So I didn’t see anyone say the logic on the garage door plug ins being gfi?

 

[ponytug]

Not to put words in the mouths of the code authors, but I would guess that the logic is a) close to doors and the outside, and b) a damp/wet environment as wet cars come in.

It is a long list, but the recurring theme to me is the potential (pun intended) for contact with good grounds (wet floor, soils, pipes, appliances, plumbing).

https://www.mikeholt.com/newsletters.php?action=display&letterID=2750

All the best,

Peter

 

[dstig1]

So I didn’t see anyone say the logic on the garage door plug ins being gfi?

I explained it in post #35. A jobs program for code writers. Plus the desire of these ninnys to eliminate 100% of all possible risk, no matter how small or improbable/impossible. Someone could be standing in a bucket of water on a ladder to unplug the opener. RISK!!!

Anyone older than 60 today can remember houses being wired with aluminum in the 1970's, and burning to the ground in the 1980's. And who above 50 doesn't know someone who's been shocked everytime they touched their kitchen range and toaster or refrigerator at the same time? Code is good.

Slight correction: Code WAS good. The phrase the code is written in the blood of those who came before was indeed true. But they have gone waaaaayyy too far in the recent years with things that make no common sense, but are pushed by special interests. These exceptions for garage openers and basement freezers are two excellent examples of no common sense.

Recall how sprinklers are now REQUIRED in all new construction by the code? Was pushed by the plumbers and fire fighters unions. Now why don't you know about it? Because it was such a ridiculous overreach that almost no states adopted it, and some states wrote legislation banning the requirement of sprinklers in single family dwellings to doubly make sure. You can still do it, of course, but it isn't and can't be required.

The NEC went from the best example of best practices to plain old silly now. All over the past 15-20 years.

 

[grsthegreat]

Mine is knob and tube and soldered… 3 bedroom 1 bath built in 1922

1 bath…yeiks. My house is 3 bedrooms and 3.5 baths. Plus a bath in tack room.

Can’t ever have enough baths.

 

[grsthegreat]

So I didn’t see anyone say the logic on the garage door plug ins being gfi?

They simply placed a blanket ALL OUTLETS IN GARAGE/shop/or outbuilding to be GFCI. Even if you have a ceiling hung heater 20 feet in the air, the outlet has to be gfci protected, and you cannot have it such as a ladder has to be used to reset the outlet. In other words either a lower non outlet dead front gfci device or a breaker.

 

[dodge man]

My shop, separate from the house has no gfi outlets in it. I have one outside outlet, I’ll have to look and see if it’s a gfi. It’s about 25 years old and I had it built and I don’t feel unsafe about it. Our house is about 55 years old and during remodeling they added them to the kitchen and bathrooms.

 

[grsthegreat]

I have no issue with GFCI outlets for garage, kit, bath and all exterior or shops

But I draw the line at certain requirements like freezers, refers, outlets 20 feet in the air

I had a client a few years ago that called me because his garage freezer GFCI went bad. He just returned from an Alaskan salmon fishing trip. Paid several grand for trip and to have fish flash frozen nd flown back home.
All the fish went bad. Mind you, I think all fish starts out bad to begin with, but this smelled like death.

I have wireless alerting thermometers in all my refers and freezers. Will alert me if temps reach set thresholds. I have 5 refer or freezer units. Lots of $$$$ worth of food that could get spoiled. I had it alert me one time I was at a horse show. I came back home and was able to move lol food to other freezers until I could get a new freezer. The old one was about 15 years old, and I wanted a larger unit anyways. Saved me a lot of money. It was stiffed with steaks, pork and chicken.

 

[grsthegreat]

I have gotten numerous calls about people wiring septic pump systems onto GFCI circuits. Guess what…..they trip constantly.

What a stupid as* requirement

 

[mjonesnh]

House built in 1986. GFIC breaker in box tied to regular duplex 15 amp receptacles in bathrooms and outdoors on deck and carport. Worked great for about 25 years then started tripping for no reason, Replaced with an Eaton brand and lasted only 2 years. Then replaced that with a Siemens brand, worked ok but buzzed so much you could hear it several feet away in kitchen. Gave up and bought a standard 20 amp breaker at Ace Hardware, ordered GFIC 20 amp outlets from Amazon and replaced breaker and all outlets. Been over 10 years and zero problems with current setup. Those GFIC breakers were like $35 10 years ago so out they go.

 

[Runner]

I explained it in post #35. A jobs program for code writers. Plus the desire of these ninnys to eliminate 100% of all possible risk, no matter how small or improbable/impossible. Someone could be standing in a bucket of water on a ladder to unplug the opener. RISK!!!


Slight correction: Code WAS good. The phrase the code is written in the blood of those who came before was indeed true. But they have gone waaaaayyy too far in the recent years with things that make no common sense, but are pushed by special interests. These exceptions for garage openers and basement freezers are two excellent examples of no common sense.

Recall how sprinklers are now REQUIRED in all new construction by the code? Was pushed by the plumbers and fire fighters unions. Now why don't you know about it? Because it was such a ridiculous overreach that almost no states adopted it, and some states wrote legislation banning the requirement of sprinklers in single family dwellings to doubly make sure. You can still do it, of course, but it isn't and can't be required.

The NEC went from the best example of best practices to plain old silly now. All over the past 15-20 years.

Don't leave out the corporate interests. Many code requirements are promulgated by companies that just so happen to make products that are solutions to the "problem". Electrical companies selling GFCI/AFCI breakers, gypsum board and concrete block companies pushing firewall requirements, sprinkler supply companies pushing sprinklers in all occupancies, glass companies coming up with new and better places for safety glazing, etc.

Code changes can be proposed by anyone and many code changes are proposed by these organizations that have hired representatives (almost said pew pews) to lobby for the changes at the code conferences. Sometimes they even push them through at midnight when there may not be that many of the actual membership voting members in the room...

 

[grsthegreat]

Don't leave out the corporate interests. Many code requirements are promulgated by companies that just so happen to make products that are solutions to the "problem". Electrical companies selling GFCI/AFCI breakers, gypsum board and concrete block companies pushing firewall requirements, sprinkler supply companies pushing sprinklers in all occupancies, glass companies coming up with new and better places for safety glazing, etc.

Code changes can be proposed by anyone and many code changes are proposed by these organizations that have hired representatives (almost said pew pews) to lobby for the changes at the code conferences. Sometimes they even push them through at midnight when there may not be that many of the actual membership voting members in the room...

You got that right. They passed codes requiring ark fault breakers BEFORE anyone designed an ark fault breaker. The people designing them pushed thru legislation

 

[ultrarunner]

I explained it in post #35. A jobs program for code writers. Plus the desire of these ninnys to eliminate 100% of all possible risk, no matter how small or improbable/impossible. Someone could be standing in a bucket of water on a ladder to unplug the opener. RISK!!!


Slight correction: Code WAS good. The phrase the code is written in the blood of those who came before was indeed true. But they have gone waaaaayyy too far in the recent years with things that make no common sense, but are pushed by special interests. These exceptions for garage openers and basement freezers are two excellent examples of no common sense.

Recall how sprinklers are now REQUIRED in all new construction by the code? Was pushed by the plumbers and fire fighters unions. Now why don't you know about it? Because it was such a ridiculous overreach that almost no states adopted it, and some states wrote legislation banning the requirement of sprinklers in single family dwellings to doubly make sure. You can still do it, of course, but it isn't and can't be required.

The NEC went from the best example of best practices to plain old silly now. All over the past 15-20 years.

We have sprinkler and solar and provision for electric charging for new builds plus ban on gas anything and solid fuel burning…

 

[grsthegreat]

I have no sprinkler (fire) only for grass. No solar, no electric car outlets, 2 fireplaces and all gas appliances. So I cancel you out…..

 

[IndyJay]

We are in the process of getting electric into our shop building, and the inspector is insisting on a 20A outlet per overhead door/bay. Apparently, this is a push because of EV chargers (something that will likely never step foot inside our shop building).

The shop building has two overhead doors, and it would be fairly easy to put a pair of 20A outlets in between the two doors to meet the requirement, requiring roughly 40 feet of wire from the panel.

Questions I have for those who know NEC better....

Do those outlets have to be GFCI protected at the breaker?

Will a two-outlet GFCI meet the "one per bay" requirement?

It's overall a silly requirement, but the inspector always wins, so it's not worth fighting.

I am wondering if he is requiring two dedicated 20a outlets, each on it's own breaker. Does a single EV draw more than 10A? If so, it seems that it would require separate 20A circuits. Not two 20A outlets on the same breaker.

 

[lman]

I am wondering if he is requiring two dedicated 20a outlets, each on it's own breaker. Does a single EV draw more than 10A? If so, it seems that it would require separate 20A circuits. Not two 20A outlets on the same breaker.

I have a 60 amp breaker for my 240V 48 amp hardwired EVSE.

 

[eolesen]

I am wondering if he is requiring two dedicated 20a outlets, each on it's own breaker. Does a single EV draw more than 10A? If so, it seems that it would require separate 20A circuits. Not two 20A outlets on the same breaker.

I've asked but haven't heard back yet. Level 1 chargers are 12 to 16A. With 20A GFCI/AFI breakers running $60 each and 12/2 running $0.65 a foot, it won't break the bank. Reality is that anyone investing in an EV will put in a 240V circuit.

It's more irritating than anything else, especially considering that we will be building another garage for the house in the near future. My shop is for the Kubota, camper and storing the ATV's.

 

[Willman]

How many have had inspectors push their personal “ideas” on you that was not actually a code requirement?

 

[WinterDeere]

How many have had inspectors push their personal “ideas” on you that was not actually a code requirement?

Me. Usually not worth arguing with them, unless you’re already at final inspection, and won’t need to deal with them ever again. Either just go along with their stupidity, or undo it after they’re gone and the job is finished. Fighting them on it, even if you’re right, can cause the remainder of your job to go a lot less smoothly.

There are many good inspectors out there, but there are also many with Barney Fife’s desire to throw their weight around, at every opportunity.