Hydraulics - 3ord function loader port for blade angling

[FlyFishn]

All,

We're working through the set up of a compact utility tractor. No matter what way we go, it would have a loader and 3ord function hydraulics - specifically for this application and a few others.

We've looked at some purpose-built snow blade loader attachments and as nice as they would be, cost-wise we're just going to make do with what we already have - that is a 7' 3pt rear blade. It will do the job fine.

That said, I need to fabricate the cylinder mounts. I am not sure what that geometry should be or the dimensions therein.

The other big question is - what is a suitable cylinder for the task? Maybe I need to start there then base the mounts/fabrication/design off the cylinder dimensions. Additionally, if we use the blade beyond snow for grading and spreading gravel - is what ever cylinder we pick going to be up to the task? Or is that going to be asking too much of said 3ord function and cylinder?

See attached pictures for the blade we have.

The top view of the blade shows the swivel and pin holes for the angling. Note that this was as we got it - all bent up out of shape. I cut it apart last winter, straightened some pieces, and welded it back together. It isn't perfect, but it works very well now.

 

[D&D]

For your setup, you want to add 2 Single acting or 1 double acting cylinder? Rear remote hydraulics? Manual valves or electric solenoid?
Adding in the tractor make and model and loader valve make and model will help to figure out what you will need.
Here’s some links to help get you started.

Hydraulic Directional Control Valve With 1-2-3 Spool 45l/min for Double Acting Cylinders - Sparepartsholland - SPH330028

Hydraulic Monoblock Directional Control Valve – SPH330028 45 l/min flow, hand-controlled with safety valve. Durable cast iron body. World-wide shipping & daily shipment!

sparepartsholland.com

Rear Remote Kits

Summit Hydraulics Rear Remote Kits help you add rear remotes to your subcompact tractor in an easy package! Free Shipping!

summit-hydraulics.com

surpluscenter.com

2.5 bore x 18 stroke hydraulic cylinder, welded cross tube double acting cylinder | Magister Hydraulics

2.5" bore x 18" stroke cross tube hydraulic cylinder 3500 PSI. Heavy-duty hydraulics, 2-year warranty, free ground Continental US shipping. Magister cylinders manufactured using steel piston and steel threaded gland with wear rings for long life. Welded cross tube ends, honed cold-drawn tubing...

www.magisterhyd.com

 

[bdhsfz6]

To avoid shock loads to your tractor's hydraulic system, you may want to add a crossover cushion relief valve such as this one:

Dual Crossover Hydraulic Relief Cushion Valve, 1/2" NPT Ports, 19 GPM

Dual Crossover Hydraulic Relief Cushion Valve, 1/2” NPT Ports, 19 GPM Free Shipping

summit-hydraulics.com

This will protect both the blade and tractor from damage should you snag the blade on something.

 

[FlyFishn]

For your setup, you want to add 2 Single acting or 1 double acting cylinder? Rear remote hydraulics? Manual valves or electric solenoid?

Im not sure on the cylinders - thats part of my question in what will be up to the task.

The blade is going to be loader mounted on the front of another machine with a loader to 3pt adapter.

The control for the angling will be the 3ord function hydraulics - on the machines we're looking at that is an electric solenoid valve. The angling would function similarly to the closing and opening of a grapple.

 

[zzvyb6]

You don't need a 3rd function. Once the curl angle is set, disconnect and run the angle cylinder. The full length of your angle cylinder determines the amount of angle you can swing. Do you want to go 45 degrees each way or just 45 degrees 1 way ? Pin the cylinder base mount, manually swing the blade to desired positions and spot the pin for end of stroke position.

 

[shooterdon]

You don't need a large cylinder. Look at what is used on a truck plow.

BTW, I had a blade attached as you described:

I found it was not that great a setup. If you accidentally curl the blade when it is angled it will not be level. I used mine for back dragging and let the blower throw the white stuff.

I used that set up for a while until I got a truck that had with a V plow.

This year I sold both the V plow and blower and am using a snow pusher. So far so good. If you have an area you can push snow, a pusher is hard to beat.

 

[FlyFishn]

You don't need a large cylinder. Look at what is used on a truck plow.

BTW, I had a blade attached as you described:

I found it was not that great a setup.

I agree on it not being ideal, but its the only blade we have that will work other than the loader bucket. See next post for more detail on the set up/operation.

 

[FlyFishn]

You don't need a 3rd function. Once the curl angle is set, disconnect and run the angle cylinder. The full length of your angle cylinder determines the amount of angle you can swing. Do you want to go 45 degrees each way or just 45 degrees 1 way ? Pin the cylinder base mount, manually swing the blade to desired positions and spot the pin for end of stroke position.

We need a grapple also, so the hydraulics will already be there.

The idea with the set up is to operate everything from the seat. On the old set up I have to look behind me plowing backwards and to change angle I have to stop, get off the machine, pull the pin, rotate, put the pin back in, and climb back on the machine. I need to be able to do that all from the seat. That means angling both left and right the same amount with however the hydraulics are set up.

If I can get it strong enough I can spread gravel and dirt too that would be great, but snow is the priority. I dont know how strong the 3 point frame is on the blade. It was mangled when we got it and I cut it apart, straightened it, and welded back together. Im pretty confident the welding will hold, but not the frame design. Im sure Ill find its limit.

 

[shooterdon]

Your blade looks very much like the one I have and used on the SSQA to 3 PT adapter. If is a weak design but should do OK with snow if you don't abuse it. If you hit a stump or rock you will damage it.

Maybe consider making the pin attaching the blade to the cylinder a shear pin.

 

[D&D]

Im not sure on the cylinders - thats part of my question in what will be up to the task.

The blade is going to be loader mounted on the front of another machine with a loader to 3pt adapter.

The control for the angling will be the 3ord function hydraulics - on the machines we're looking at that is an electric solenoid valve. The angling would function similarly to the closing and opening of a grapple.

I’m confused, you already have a 3rd function kit installed on the other tractor?

 

[Carl_NH]

We need a grapple also, so the hydraulics will already be there.
The idea with the set up is to operate everything from the seat. On the old set up I have to look behind me plowing backwards and to change angle I have to stop, get off the machine, pull the pin, rotate, put the pin back in, and climb back on the machine. I need to be able to do that all from the seat. That means angling both left and right the same amount with however the hydraulics are set up.

I've plowed a lot of snow with the loader and a manual rear 3 PT blade as you have. The loader does much of the pushing and cleaning, and the blade scrapes it clean. I don't change the angle of the rear blade much at all - it stays pinned at the maximum angle then offset (using the 3PT arms) to just cover the left rear wheel, then outside the right rear wheel by 10-12" to push the snow off the road.

If you put the blade on the front, in place of the bucket, what's on the back as a counter weight to help clean the snow?

Unless you get a lot of 12-18" snowfalls at one time, the front loader and rear blade will do a good job. If you need an SSQA plow, you can find them used for $1000 or so and that would be a great "future setup" with your 3rd function, and the rear blade.

 

[FlyFishn]

I’m confused, you already have a 3rd function kit installed on the other tractor?

We're working through getting a compact utility tractor. Part of the deal is it set up from the get-go with 3ord function because we're needing a grapple in addition to some other loader mounted tools. Instead of getting a purpose-built blade for the loader (which are available), we're saving some money using the 3pt blade we have - just adapting it to the loader mount (skid steer style). Here is one such adapter:

Amazon.com

The pictures of the blade on the old tractor is just to show the blade. That isn't the machine it is going to run with this season (that old tractor is apart in the shop now).

 

[FlyFishn]

If you put the blade on the front, in place of the bucket, what's on the back as a counter weight to help clean the snow?

We can put anything on the back on the 3pt. Though, I am looking in to wheel weights also.

 

[shooterdon]

If you want a less expensive option. $220 delivered on eBay.

Pardon Our Interruption...

 

[GrandpaSmurf825]

I would suggest looking at how the rear blades that have power angle on them are set up. Where the cylinders are mounted and how large. Obviously the larger the horsepower tractor they are built for the heavier they will be. I agree with the cross over relief suggestion to protect the blade and cylinder from a sudden shock load if you were to strike a solid object at speed. An extended cylinder can be surprisingly easy to turn into a horse shoe when forces above normal operating pressures are encountered.

We had a machine or actually dozens of similar machines that used a as I recall 4 by 24 cylinder. However the cylinder ran in either fully extended or fully retracted position and a mechanical lock was engaged to handle the working forces. Then you get the lazy/ incompetent operator who didn't verify the lock engaged. Then you are torching the cylinder to get it out of the machine because it's so badly bent. We always said our jobs would have been easy if we only had to repair what wore out on the equipment.

 

[bdhsfz6]

We're working through getting a compact utility tractor. Part of the deal is it set up from the get-go with 3ord function because we're needing a grapple in addition to some other loader mounted tools. Instead of getting a purpose-built blade for the loader (which are available), we're saving some money using the 3pt blade we have - just adapting it to the loader mount (skid steer style). Here is one such adapter:

Amazon.com

The pictures of the blade on the old tractor is just to show the blade. That isn't the machine it is going to run with this season (that old tractor is apart in the shop now).

I have that 3pt adapter and it is indeed a valuable attachment.

Be careful using your blade with that adapter though. It has no trip springs like a FEL plow, and you can do some serious damage to the FEL if you hit something solid.

 

[FlyFishn]

Based on some suggestions last year I cut a piece of 1.5 or 2" PVC pipe to install on the cutting edge of the blade. Our drive is gravel and the idea with the pipe is it would allow the blade to ride up over the gravel and get the snow off the top.

There are some tree roots on the side of the drive I've noticed have been catching the lawn tractor blade. It, also, does not have trip springs, but it does have shoes. They don't do much on the gravel - I've already pushed a lot of it off the drive. So that blade is going to get the same PVC cutting edge treatment as soon as I can get it back here (its out for repair but should be about done).

As to the relief valve - I see the one in the link posted earlier has an adjustable bypass pressure of 150-2600psi. That sounds like it would be ideal. The trick is going to be figuring out what an appropriate pressure is for it. Is there a method anyone can come up with that would bring any reasonable accuracy to setting it? Maybe setting the blade against a solid object and running the hydraulics while having a pressure gauge in line with the circuit being tuned? I am not sure how the 3ord function solenoid will operate, however I would have to imagine there is a flow adjustment to set the speed for what ever function that is controlling (blade angle, grapple closing/opening). Maybe with that turned way down (low flow/slow) and the pressure gauge it would be conceivable to let the 3ord function flow a bit in each direction then calibrate the bypass pressure to a more ideal number? I guess I don't have any idea what that number may be, other than to throw something at the wall on the low side, try it, and increase maybe 200-250psi each time? If the blade grabs a pile of snow off the end and the pressure trips I'd say it would be too low.

 

[bdhsfz6]

Based on some suggestions last year I cut a piece of 1.5 or 2" PVC pipe to install on the cutting edge of the blade. Our drive is gravel and the idea with the pipe is it would allow the blade to ride up over the gravel and get the snow off the top.

There are some tree roots on the side of the drive I've noticed have been catching the lawn tractor blade. It, also, does not have trip springs, but it does have shoes. They don't do much on the gravel - I've already pushed a lot of it off the drive. So that blade is going to get the same PVC cutting edge treatment as soon as I can get it back here (its out for repair but should be about done).

As to the relief valve - I see the one in the link posted earlier has an adjustable bypass pressure of 150-2600psi. That sounds like it would be ideal. The trick is going to be figuring out what an appropriate pressure is for it. Is there a method anyone can come up with that would bring any reasonable accuracy to setting it? Maybe setting the blade against a solid object and running the hydraulics while having a pressure gauge in line with the circuit being tuned? I am not sure how the 3ord function solenoid will operate, however I would have to imagine there is a flow adjustment to set the speed for what ever function that is controlling (blade angle, grapple closing/opening). Maybe with that turned way down (low flow/slow) and the pressure gauge it would be conceivable to let the 3ord function flow a bit in each direction then calibrate the bypass pressure to a more ideal number? I guess I don't have any idea what that number may be, other than to throw something at the wall on the low side, try it, and increase maybe 200-250psi each time? If the blade grabs a pile of snow off the end and the pressure trips I'd say it would be too low.

Set the crossover valve to it's minimum and try plowing. If the blade trips too easily, bump the pressure up a bit at a time until it holds.

 

[FlyFishn]

To avoid shock loads to your tractor's hydraulic system, you may want to add a crossover cushion relief valve such as this one:
View attachment 4655380

Dual Crossover Hydraulic Relief Cushion Valve, 1/2" NPT Ports, 19 GPM

Dual Crossover Hydraulic Relief Cushion Valve, 1/2” NPT Ports, 19 GPM Free Shipping

summit-hydraulics.com

This will protect both the blade and tractor from damage should you snag the blade on something.

Another thought -
Would adding these relief blocks to the loader frame itself help also? I am not sure how that would work, but my idea is if the impact from plowing and hitting something could be deflected by hydraulic pressure release in either the lift cylinders or curl cylinders that might be a good idea. I just dont know that the physical geometry would work in that capacity?

 

[FlyFishn]

Re: 3 point adapter to loader mount -

I ordered the unit from Ebay (link below).

However, I am looking at it and the design of the blade we have and the receiver hitch will be blocking the blade frame.

Are there any ideas on how to overcome this without loosing the receiver tube? I hate to do yet more fabrication, but it is looking like that is the only way around this one.

The only thought I can come up with is to cut out the cross brace of the blade frame and replace that somehow. The question is with what?

One idea would be to use heavy angle in a triangle pattern (angle as opposed to flat bar/plate as the 90deg legs will resist flexing at the point of the triangle, whereas a bent plate/flat bar would have more of a tendency to bend there). The goal would be that "triangle" point is far enough in towards the blade that it opens up the space for the receiver hitch to clear.

*The picture is as we got the blade. I cut it apart, straightened it, and welded it back together so it is functional, not this twisted heap you see. However, this is the best picture I have right now that shows the frame interference I am talking about with the cross bar between the lift arm pins.

3 point adapter