Electricity Price Increases

[rontaki]

California: Too much pollution, gotta ban everything.

California: Build, baby build. Let's house half the world's population. Who needs open space?

 

[jyoutz]

At least partly true, but you're opening a can of worms there, as at least some of what is being cited in such claims are standard tax breaks available to all manufacturing businesses. Very muddy waters, indeed.

One thing I've learned from studying history and many past wars, is that the more you learn about any conflict, the harder it becomes to tell the "good guys" from the "bad guys". The Devil is in the details, and perspective is everything. I think the same goes for most debates on energy production, there's good and bad in all aspects, and all sides are at least a little dishonest in curating the numbers that support their perspective.

The mining and oil/gas industries have enjoyed below open market rates (nearly free) for their operations on federal lands for over a century.

 

[ultrarunner]

I wonder if the solar sales guys had crystal balls looking into the future?

Attended a few presentations and all very similar… sales would ask if we thought PGE would charge more or less per kWh in the future…

Everyone always said more and then the linear graph showing a modest annual projected increase would come out showing a 12-15 year payback.

It’s not like sales to not exaggerate but these guys were way to conservative and greatly underestimated PGE rate hikes.

There are verified paybacks in half of what was projected.

In my install the most expensive part turned out to be the ground mounts… but they will be there forever and new panels are rated 2 to 3 times output in same footprint…

 

[jyoutz]

No solid fuel burn bans or prohibitions on installing wood stoves, fireplaces, etc. where you are?

It’s code here and was expanding to gas fired appliances until a recent pause.

There are no wood stove or fireplace prohibitions in New Mexico and a sizable portion of homes are heated with wood.

 

[ultrarunner]

There are no wood stove or fireplace prohibitions in New Mexico and a sizable portion of homes are heated with wood.

Maybe a business opportunity for exporting CA wood?

I do enjoy a good fire with my spilt and seasoned oak… burns hot, lasts longs with very little ash remaining.

In the Carter years there were tax credits for installing wood stoves to tap Americas abundant natural resource… my how things have changed.

When my brother bought the farm my sister in law said she was getting rid of the wood stove and I said at the move in, “I will take it away right now” and then she paused.

Fast forward and no one is taking away her wood stove.

 

[jyoutz]

Maybe a business opportunity for exporting CA wood?

I do enjoy a good fire with my spilt and seasoned oak… burns hot, lady longs and very little ash remains…

We have an excess of wood here in our forests:

 

[ultrarunner]

:-( ok… just a thought.

California had a similar situation with excess fuel load and growing.

One of out TBN members posted it’s difficult to get hardwood firewood in his part of Nevada…

I know moving firewood is often restricted in California.

 

[jyoutz]

:-( ok… just a thought.

California had a similar situation with excess fuel load and growing.

One of out TBN members posted it’s difficult to get hardwood firewood in his part of Nevada…

I know moving firewood is often restricted in California.

Just about every western state has overly dense forests that need thinning. Nevada might be the exception.

 

[not2old]

There is lots of "free" wood available here but it takes some real effort. Cutting, splitting and stacking doesn't happen by itself. I'm in 4600 square feet on two floors with geothermal heat and cooling and I heat my 650 foot garage. Heating my new shop isn't until next year. My total electric bill for the year is less than $3000. I understand why people aren't using wood much anymore.

 

[CliffordK]

I'm currently on EWEB (Public Utility) which gets most of its power from Bonneville Power Administration (Federal Government).

7% rate increase February 2025
2.7% "pass through" increase from BPA rate increases October 2025.

Basic Charge $30
Delivery Charge: 3.38 cents per kWh
Energy Charge: 7.78 cents per kWh.

If one has two power meters... then that basic charge doubles.

I'm fairly frugal with my energy usage, so the basic connect fee is a huge part of my bill.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

For the ROI, I think that a lot depends on your local power costs, local construction/installation costs, and local solar availability. For us the locally high power costs dominated, as did our high installation cost, and relatively poor solar availability. For us, we decided to install solar when my ROI suggested a 7 year return on investment, including capital costs. Electricity rates that rose faster than projected drove the actual ROI to 4.5 years.

I can't say it often enough, but I think the economics of installing solar is hyper local. I've lived places where overcast skies predominate for much of the year, and that is going to make solar a lot less economical for most folks.

That doesn't mean that there might be non-economic reasons to install solar, e.g. grid independence, reducing a fossil fuel footprint, or improved resilience. YMMV (a lot).

All the best, Peter

I'm an old guy who remembers when the sun was an energy source before PV panels. I have a nice south wall in my house with an overhang. It's 50 degrees out, and the heat pump has not run today. I let the wood stove go out because it's not needed, but wood is also solar, thanks to all that chlorophyll.

Those windows cost me $1.50/sf including the insulating cellular blinds I can close at night. The low E glass is not great for solar, but the energy savings are a tradeoff. They do pretty good, particularly since there are 180 sf of glass. I have never considered residential PV, though I have a 100w panel for emergencies and a solar battery maintainer for the tractor in the barn. I have considered industrial PV because I have ~3 acres of 100% south slope. I asked PP&L about it and they laughed at me. I am the last house on the 1200v line, which has been hung together with chewing gum. I'm 3 miles from the nearest 3-phase. Location, location, location. Sigh.

I have considered solar hot water, which would be good payback, but there is no good place to install a tank. Once again, no electricity needed, or not much, and I could build the collector myself. Heating water is half the energy budget of the typical household. My pipe dream is a collector on the roof and coils behind the wood stove. I went so far as to finish the design of that one, circ pumps moving heat from the best source to a heat exchanger with three temp sensors and a PLC running the circ pump and servo valves. I passed because of the plumbing problem, plus I will need to sell this place someday and needing an operating engineer would shrink the buyer pool.

Passive solar windows and wood heat will have to do. There is still a lot to be said for 19th century technology.

 

[MossRoad]

The mining and oil/gas industries have enjoyed below open market rates (nearly free) for their operations on federal lands for over a century.

They can't give coal away now....

U.S. rejects Navajo company's bid to buy 167 million tons of coal on public lands

The Department of Interior said in a Tuesday statement that last week’s $186,000 bid from the Navajo Transitional Energy Co. (NTEC) did not meet the requirements of the Mineral Leasing Act.

www.kjzz.org

 

[Larry Caldwell]

There is lots of "free" wood available here but it takes some real effort. Cutting, splitting and stacking doesn't happen by itself. I'm in 4600 square feet on two floors with geothermal heat and cooling and I heat my 650 foot garage. Heating my new shop isn't until next year. My total electric bill for the year is less than $3000. I understand why people aren't using wood much anymore.

There are tremendous health benefits to physical activity. I put two years worth of wood into the wood shed this summer. I am 78, and still hand split my own. It took me a couple hours a day for 3 weeks, I ricked it to dry in direct sun all summer, and moved it into the wood shed before it got rained on. I'm fortunate that my health allows that much activity, but it maintains my health. Judging from family members, I will have to rely on the heat pump by the time I am 90, but meanwhile a healthy and active body is worth the price of admission.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

I hosted some visiting engineers from Germany 20 years ago and was asked why widespread solar was not a thing here in California as it was catching on in Germany which does not have near as many sun hours.

Now northern latitudes like Seattle have solar gaining.

Maybe the cost per Watt dropping plus incentives/regulatory changes turned the tide?

With my electricity cost zeroed I need to focus on the thousand dollars each year spent on natural gas…

Maybe a dual fuel water heater when it comes time to replace?

Heat pump water heater.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

There are no wood stove or fireplace prohibitions in New Mexico and a sizable portion of homes are heated with wood.

No matter where you are, codes only apply for new construction.

 

[ultrarunner]

Heat pump water heater.

I expect they are better now… only know one early adopters person and it was plagued with problems…

My gas cost works out to be about $80 per month… PGE sends me a small solar check every year at true which covers all my electric monthly meter fees, etc.

Having extra insulated walls and triple pane windows pays off…

 

[ultrarunner]

No matter where you are, codes only apply for new construction.

I wish that to be the case…

Sell your home here and clay sewer drain tiles must be replaced…

Sell your home in SF and galvanized pipe must be changed to copper…

Sell and low flush toilets, seismic bracing and smoke and C/O detectors must be installed.

I have a cat equipped Buck stove installed with permit. I am forbidden to use it on cold winter nights… same with my fireplace.

There is a push to remove or seal up chimneys upon sale but not happening yet… ok to have but not use.

Want to replace your gas furnace code says heatpump… heat pump often requires service upgrade for homes built for gas heat, water heating and cooking.

 

[Jstpssng]

I have my own opinions about subsidies. It's one hing if you believe in big government and "spreading the wealth. Yet I know people who complain about their taxes yet take government money, whether it's 5000 first home rebates in the Obama age or wood stove incentives in the Trump era. When somebody is one of the biggest landowners around, why should we buy them a new tank truck for their business?

 

[ultrarunner]

I thought the wood stove rebates were only Carter era during the energy crisis?

Wouldn’t work here in Trump era because no new installs permitted.

I guess the tried and true home mortgage tax deduction and child tax credit are the most used and enjoyed by many…?

 

[mjonesnh]

I'm currently on EWEB (Public Utility) which gets most of its power from Bonneville Power Administration (Federal Government).

7% rate increase February 2025
2.7% "pass through" increase from BPA rate increases October 2025.

Basic Charge $30
Delivery Charge: 3.38 cents per kWh
Energy Charge: 7.78 cents per kWh.

If one has two power meters... then that basic charge doubles.

I'm fairly frugal with my energy usage, so the basic connect fee is a huge part of my bill.

Have TVA here in middle TN., $33 base charge and 11¢/ KW. Looks like your part of Oregon and here north of Nasville are very similar.